Difference between high and low rank games?

[terraform]

I've noticed that a lot of my low rank games have big territories (into which my opponent always makes a reckless invasion, and I have to stretch my fighting skills to kill) and high rank games that I watch (SDKs mostly, because I watch games in the Beginner's Room on KGS ) have lots of small groups that are worth only 5-10 points (average guesstimation).

During the games, I've noticed that my low rank games consist of very few groups fighting for life while higher rank games consist of lots of groups fighting simultaneously for life. This is just a rough outline, of course, but it summarizes the general trend of what I see well enough.

My question is: what happens from the first stone to the transition to the middle game that causes this huge discrepancy? If needed I can find examples of the difference I'm talking about.

[lorill]

If you can, I'd like to see some examples. I'm in the sdk range, and I didn't notice this in my games. Some of them are like you say, but most of them also have some big territories. It really depends on the game I guess.

[daal]

That's a good observation. At some point the divide-the-board-in-two strategy just disappears. One reason I think is that such games tend not to be particularly exciting. Usually the game is more interesting when one invades before it is too late. There is a saying to the effect that the best time for an invasion is right before the opponent turns the mapped out area into solid territory.

Yesterday I watched an 18k game where both players employed the cut-the-board-in-half strategy, and it became quickly apparent to me that one of them would get a bigger half than the other. I think a stronger player recognizes this quicker and steps in earlier to counteract the otherwise inevitable result.

This alone however may not account for the phenomena. I think what changes is that one learns basic principles of the opening, and these lead to parts of the board being divided rather than the whole board at once. One quickly learns that ignoring such basic opening principles can allow a slightly stronger player to quickly get an overwhelming advantage, so trying to cut off half the board instead becomes impractical.

[dangomango]

beginners often play slow moves that dont do much
as they move up they start to do more and more with each move
then as they turn sdk, they often try to play joseki moves trying to play "standard"/honte to gain advantage of opponent to gain ground if opponent deviates from joseki
then as they turn amateur dans, they often try to complicate everything and play non standard joseki to explore a new world
then as they turn pro, they often play simple and efficient moves or complicated ones but still efficient

and also alot of it has to do with styles, every 1k plays different than one another because they prefer to play differently (style), they were taught differently (knowledge), they gained different types of previous knowledge (experience)
so style, knowledge experience all makes different ppl of same rank to be different than one another

even if all of them have the same kind of knowledge and experience, different styles tend to play different types of moves
1 can play super fast/land grabbing/invasion moves all over the board at any level (greedy go)
1 can play solidly and exploit any weakness from opponents shape/groups/etc. (using thickness to attack)
btw, knowledge and experience can affects 1 style
say your teacher only plays a certain style, he will teach that style along with his knowledge to you
say you had good experience with a specific style, you will try to stick with that style because it works for you

[nagano]

Also, weaker players tend to follow their opponent around the board, while stronger ones recognize that there are often things more profitable then immediate defense.

[snorri]

Large territories are harder to count (especially when in tight time limits like byoyomi.) Large territories with fixed shape may be less likely to happen early in the games of stronger players, because one player or another would simply refuse to fix the shape if they were behind, and they are more likely to know if they are behind by even a little than a weaker player would be.

I remember that Myungwan Kim 8p once said in a lecture that Korean pros will often try to start a fight in the opening if they think they are even 1-2 points behind. That's at the extreme end of strength, but it gives you an example.

Large territories may be fixed somewhat later in the game, as you may see in games of Takemiya, though. Each game is different, though, so I'm not sure one can make a general rule or consider it a piece of advice to favor games with more, smaller territories. The only thing that can be said is that it's good to favor positions you are winning.

[Numsgil]

It is, to some degree, a purely stylistic choice. I've seen a few pro games with a divide-the-board-in-half strategy. And I've seen pro games that were literally whole-board brawls that spill over from a particular joseki choice.

The all-out fighting tends to favor the stronger reader. What happens, I think, is that by the time you get to SDK you've done enough problems that you have an overabundance of fighting spirit: every group looks killable, and no scrape is too tough to read your way out of. And if even one of the players wants to play like this, both players have to play like this. As you get into the dans, I would expect, statistically, more moyo-centered games.

[gaius]

^ Hehe. That probably holds for the high dan grades, but plenty of 1, 2 or even 3 dans out there fight like insane killing machines - though the game does become a bit more controlled and refined form of killing insanity than before

[nagano]

though the game does become a bit more controlled and refined form of killing insanity than before

Which pretty much applies to Lee Sedol.

[Shaddy]

^ Hehe. That probably holds for the high dan grades, but plenty of 1, 2 or even 3 dans out there fight like insane killing machines - though the game does become a bit more controlled and refined form of killing insanity than before

I've had opponents in the dan ranks who have absolutely no grasp of the opening, but then they outread me by a mile and suddenly I'm dead everywhere and everything is aflame. No control, no refinement, just brutal attacks.

[topazg]

I've had opponents in the dan ranks who have absolutely no grasp of the opening, but then they outread me by a mile and suddenly I'm dead everywhere and everything is aflame. No control, no refinement, just brutal attacks.

Stop playing Violence then

Violence, I of course mean that light heartedly - I just remember with amusement your wonderful anecdotes as to how you choose your handle

[Bill Spight]

The all-out fighting tends to favor the stronger reader.

That depends on what you mean by reading. If you just mean calculation of variations, no. Reading involves judgement, as well.

What happens, I think, is that by the time you get to SDK you've done enough problems that you have an overabundance of fighting spirit: every group looks killable, and no scrape is too tough to read your way out of. And if even one of the players wants to play like this, both players have to play like this.

I started off trying to kill everything I could. Now my play is pretty placid. IMX, it is not true that if one player plays a fighting game, both players have to. I generally prefer scrappy opponents, because they make overplays. OC, I have to recognize and counter their overplays, but that is another question.

[hyperpape]

Just to make the point: it's a rare game of Takemiya's where he just turns that huge central moyo into territory. It does happen, but the ordinary case is that the opponent invades, they fight (usually without the aim of killing), and the result gives Takemiya the chance to disrupt his opponent's territories. His moyo games are quite the opposite of the peaceful division of territory you see in many DDK games.

Sometimes, Takemiya does end up with a huge territory. But rarely. His games are often like a game of chicken. He makes a moyo, his opponent makes some territory, with each of them waiting for the last possible moment to do something drastic--invading just before it would become impossible. The games where he has a single territory are the rare ones where neither player thinks he can gain an advantage by disrupting the game. In those cases, they calculate that any attempt to spoil the huge territory would hurt them more than letting him have it. But that's rare.

Of course, I'm not sure the OP really meant peaceful "divide the board in half" games.