97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:00 am

I've just agreed a game with Mark356 as a 0.5 point reverse komi game with me taking White. the idea is it is an open Malkovich for him, but not for me other than reading his comments - the aim is to make it more of an instructional Malkovich. As such, I'm going to comment on my thoughts and ideas, and put any specific sequences and reading inside separate hide tags with spoilers, so that he can choose whether to see them or not.

So, have a great game

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Mark356 · Post by **Mark356** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:28 am

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topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:30 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

General:

Mark356 · Post by **Mark356** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:02 am

Immediate thoughts:

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Recently I've been very much into playing "B" as a response to this hoshi. The hoshi tells me that White is interested in approaching soon, so I may as well just prevent that. (John Fairbairn wrote that this used to be fairly common, so since then I've been experimenting with it.) Usually White then plays near D (specifically, either the hoshi or R4 usually), and then Black plays in the last corner.

Some players ignore this sort-of-approach and just play in C for a tasuki, or at D, which can lead to a smaller variation of the Orthadox, or a modified Shusaku. Either would be fine, but I'm pretty sure that White will approach immediately if I do either of those, and then just continue attacking if I took the last corner. I think I should only play D if I'm OK with letting my first move get pincered.

The problem with playing an enclosure and letting White make a tasuki is that the follow-up is often like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . 3 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And after that White 6 I'm never quite sure what to do, because White has a nice structure right where I want influence. I'm never sure if I should try to contest that structure right away, such as by approaching the lower-right hoshi or even extending from the shimari up top, or if I just ignore. If I ignore, sometimes later in the game I'm placed in the awkward position of needing to play at point "A" in the first diagram, if I've let White approach too close on both sides.

I'll decide on my move later.

Mark356 · Post by **Mark356** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:03 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . 3 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:16 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:44 pm

I just want to say that I really like :b3:

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:25 pm

I like this opening a lot also. Where has John F. written something on it ?

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:48 pm

Mark356 · Post by **Mark356** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:08 am

Interesting! I was expecting a hoshi in that corner.

This reminds me of two Shuei games:

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In this one, the 5-4 was played after Black had already played a komoku, so Black kind of had to make the best of a bad situation.

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Black plays an approach before taking the last corner, for sente. Of course that lets White wedge, and the rest of the game is a fighting game.

If I were to take the last corner, I would either play hoshi or e3, the former because it's an influential stone to counter White's influential stones, the latter because its influence is pointing towards the weak side of White 4.

I've been trying to read out what might happen if I followed Black and approached. If I ignore a pincer, I'll then have to either live under or just leave the stone for aji. If White ignores and takes the corner, pretty much everything I play after would be an invasion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c If White pincers: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 7 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 O 5 4 8 . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd live, probably in gote, but White would get a huge wall facing the weak side of my stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c If White ignores: ideal development from a double approach $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . O X . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

At this point I would have sente and would be able to fix one of my two weak groups. Whichever one I help, I'll still be leaving a weak group on the board, and White will either be able to attack it or ignore and play Q3.

Which brings me back to D4 and E3. But I'm not sure how either of those would play out.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:27 am

Mark356 · Post by **Mark356** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:45 am

@ Loons:

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:47 am

Oops...

topazg wrote:the idea is it is an open Malkovich for him

Sorry, what does an open Malkovich for Mark356 mean, exactly?
That Mark356 is free to read any comments, even if hidden, unless specified otherwise?
Or are observers not allowed to hide comments from Mark356 at all?
Sorry, my last post was hidden, I had thought neither player would read it,
but it seems Mark356 could just read Loons' hidden comment.

Mark356 · Post by **Mark356** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:11 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not entirely sure of this, but I have these 2 joseki in mind:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 9 . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For the second joseki, if w blocks on the other side, I'll simply sacrifice a stone:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . 5 2 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 3 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There is the possibility that w will opt to cut rather than play out the keima press:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . 2 5 7 . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . 1 3 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In which case there will be a fight, and I'm pretty sure I'd be able to get something out of it.

Of course there's always the uncomfortable possibility that you'll just take the big side points:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But if that happens, it means that this will be a solid territory vs. loose moyo game, and I can handle that too.

I'm not entirely happy with this. I still think that the 4-4 point is a good option in this context-- it's a good strong stone that is happy even if I tenuki from it, and its influence might help counter the influence of both of the white corner stones. I also considered the 4-5 point for a long time, which would aim at the weak side of white's 4-5 more strongly than the 3-5 would. But I decided I don't like fourth-line stones-- I wanted a little of the stability that a third-line stone goes for.

@EdLee: Yes, I can read any comments. From here on, I will not look at comments until I've read things out a little bit, perhaps not until I post my first thoughts, so that my move might be informed by the discussion but not unduly influenced by it. If you don't want me to read your comment until after I make my move, just put "spoilers" or something in front of the hide tags. If you really don't want me to read it at all until the game is over, put "not for Mark."

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:29 pm

Life In 19x19

97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open

97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open

Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open

Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open

Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open

Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open

Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open

Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open

Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open

Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open

Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open

Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open

Re: 97: topazg vs Mark356 Semi-open