Magicwand vs. Kirby... Again

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Magicwand
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby... Again

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm101 Captured Stones: black 6, white 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . X . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X X X X O O X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 3 . O X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X X O X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . X X O X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X , X O . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


wow..it is hard to read.. i been reading for past 5 min and i think i have killing move.
i am going for the kill now..
i think it will kill him unconditionally but who knows.. :)
if it is hard for me to readout everything..i think kirby will have taugher time.
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby... Again

Post by Magicwand »

not for the players: not even magicwand
if black try to cut it will not be successful as below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm104 Captured Stones: black 6, white 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O 9 X . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X X X X O O X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 1 X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 3 O O X 0 O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O 4 O X 7 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X X 6 8 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X X O X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . X X O X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X , X O . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


if he connect his weakness..then i will chase him and make his group bigger.
i will capture him when he get's big enough for me to win comfortably.
i dont think he can live easily. even if he lives he will have to give me back my MARKED captured stones.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm101 Captured Stones: black 6, white 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . X . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X X X X O O X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X 5 O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 3 . O X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X X 4 . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X X O X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . X X W X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . X W . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X , X W . W W X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X W W W X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . W X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Tommie
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby... Again

Post by Tommie »

Not for the players

Kirby wrote:
Well, I feel like white's last move gives me a few choices. Of course, I want to separate white. If he connects the two groups below, he is a lot more comfortable:
(...)
But there is also the weakness from earlier: (...)
I'd like to deal with this weakness. (...)

Unfortunately, I think that I'll still get cut this way, as before, but I will try my best to fight:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 6 white: 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . X X O . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O X 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X X O X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . X X O X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X , X O . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The :w2:, above, is pretty severe on me. I do not see how I can avoid getting cut, unless I want ko. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 6 white: 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 5 O B B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O . X O . B O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . X X O 3 X 4 B . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O X 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X X O X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . X X O X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X , X O . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It would be a pity to put the marked black stones, above, at risk of being lost by ko.
Alternatively: (...)



In retroperspective (as I primarily doubted the ko, yet thought about a sequence where B's center stones were cut-off),
Kirby's sequence above has the big advantage that the center group IS connected, be it by ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Ko W8@a
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 a 5 O B B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O . X O . B O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . X X O 3 X 4 B . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O X 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X X O X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . X X O X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X , X O . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White has ko threats AND capturing through looks all-dominating.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Ko W8@a
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a 7 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 8 . O B B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O . X O . B O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . X X O 3 X 4 B . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O X 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X X O X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . X X O X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X , X O . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If W captures hereafter @A, then he has connected left and right groups.

Then how about avoiding the ko?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 connection B7 - no Ko
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . d 1 7 5 O Z Z . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X P . X O b Z O . |
$$ | . . r X . . . X . X X P 3 X 4 Z . O . |
$$ | . . q . . . . . X P P P X 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . p . . . . . P . X x . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . c . P . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X X O X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . X X O X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X , X O . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This B7 looks pretty submissive, right?
However, White would have gote @ B in order to capture the tiny 4 stones,
while B would have isolated the W center stones and deprived them of shape & hope.
Cutting point X is protected.

Black on the other hand, while eager to play a P, Q, or R,
should make things safe by controlling White with C.
(otherwise W plays there self in sente by forcing B to defend submissively to D)

Hence, eventually, it would look like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 connection B7 - no Ko
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . d 1 7 5 O Z Z . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X P . X O 8 Z O . |
$$ | . . r X . . . X . X X P 3 X 4 Z . O . |
$$ | . . q . . . . . X P P P X 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . p . . . . . P . X . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . P . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X X O X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . X X O X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X , X O . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


... and White had to try to mix up things.

I must say that I am impressed how MagicWand was able to complicate things and
make it 'a game' again.
Greetings,
Tommie

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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby... Again

Post by Kirby »

Hmm, I was hoping he would play M10. This is a little complicated...
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby... Again

Post by Kirby »

I have been thinking about this board position a lot. I think that a loss of something might be inevitable. But what is the optimal way to play?

The best situation is not to lose any stones. In that case, I think that I am comfortably ahead.

However, if I do have to give something up, I think the game will be much closer.

Right now, I am struggling to find a way to get myself into that best situation, but so far I have been reading ways to kill black. I'm not to the point where I have given up on that "best situation", but in the event that I cannot read out such a scenario completely, I will have to find the best alternative.

This is going to take some serious thought.

I shouldn't lose hope, though. Magicwand didn't, after all.
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby... Again

Post by Sverre »

Kirby wrote:I have been reading ways to kill black. I'm not to the point where I have given up on that "best situation"
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby... Again

Post by Loons »

Given Kirby's centre is dead, I still reckon him ahead on the board (though now in the "up to ten" points range, rather than a million). It'll take some kanny maneuvering to still confirm a win here, which is nice for us spectators at least.

Relatedly, Sverre, I don't think that's a typo.


PS
Belated birthday wishes, Kirby. I was traveling and missed the more pertinent thread.
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby... Again

Post by Aphelion »

I am almost certain that if Kirby loses the center, he will lose the game, if not outright resign (even if he were ahead on the board). I wish I'm wrong, but I don't think Kirby has the mental toughness to keep playing his best after that kind of loss.
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby... Again

Post by Phelan »

Aphelion wrote:
I am almost certain that if Kirby loses the center, he will lose the game, if not outright resign (even if he were ahead on the board). I wish I'm wrong, but I don't think Kirby has the mental toughness to keep playing his best after that kind of loss.


I'm hoping he does. Go Kirby!
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby... Again

Post by Kirby »

Still thinking...


Thanks, Loons.
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby... Again

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm101 Captured Stones: black 6, white 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . X . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X X X X O O X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O 4 O X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X X O X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . X X O X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X , X O . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, I think that I've thought through this enough. I can't seem to find a way to deal with my center stones appropriately. I knew that this was going to be a challenge when I selected this path a few moves ago.

However, I will try to make the best of this situation. It is hard to say what will happen for sure, as the situation is a little complex. I will see where he moves before elaborating more on my plan.
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby... Again

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm101 Captured Stones: black 6, white 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . X . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X X X X O O X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 O O X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X O X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X X O X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . X X O X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X , X O . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


only move for me.
if he is not going to cut..it is a bad move.
if he is going to cut...it seems bad also.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Kirby
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby... Again

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm101 Captured Stones: black 6, white 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . X . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X X X X O O X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 O O O X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X O X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X X O X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . X X O X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X , X O . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
be immersed
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Magicwand
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby... Again

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm101 Captured Stones: black 6, white 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . X . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X X X X O O X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 X O O O X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X O X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X X 9 . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X X O X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . X X O X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X , X O . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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topazg
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Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby... Again

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm107 Captured Stones: black 6, white 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O 7 X . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X X X X O O X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 X O O O X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X O X 4 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 6 . X X 3 . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 5 . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X X O X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . X X O X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . X O . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X , X O . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Exciting times, I'm feeling worried for Kirby though :(

EDIT: Hehe, posted before magicwand posted, but got a "poster has just said something" message
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