99. topazg vs sevis

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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

topazg wrote:Ok, I'll renumber
:salute:
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topazg
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Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 7 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The value of keeping Black fighting for space in the corner is not to be underestimated in a handicap game. I've done no reading, I just know this is annoying to be on the receiving end of. My goal here is to get a whole board presence out of the opening, and caps are beautifully obstructive moves.

Very important to note: I don't actually care strongly about any stone I have played so far. They are all, in a sense, probes... when my opponent picks something that he values, I pick a sequence I like. Until then, I want to keep upping the options I have available.
@sevis specifically:
"Sacrificing" a corner is very brave. In general terms, they are the diamond mines of the Go board. You better know what the value of your compensation is if you are truly prepared to let one be sacrificed :)
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

EDIT: Unhidden after :w27:.
Sevis wrote:I don't think the left-bottom corner is worth enough to justify letting white expand upwards.
:b6: is fine, but the lower left corner is also very big:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Last edited by EdLee on Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Kirby
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Re: Re:

Post by Kirby »

topazg wrote:
EdLee wrote:I like even numbers, too. :) A little survey shows the following editors all say it is :w1: :

CGoban
gIGo
inline SGF editor we use here :P
MultiGo
SmartGo

Is there an editor out there that says it is :w2: ? :mrgreen:
I think Dariush does :D
Should be :w5:, right?
be immersed
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Bill Spight
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Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Post by Bill Spight »

Note #12 unhidden. :)
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topazg
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Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Post by topazg »

Bill Spight wrote:Note #12 unhidden. :)
Hehe, I don't think I'd have wanted that one either! :P
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Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Post by Bill Spight »

EdLee wrote:
Sevis wrote:I don't think the left-bottom corner is worth enough to justify letting white expand upwards.
:b6: is fine, but the lower left corner is also very big:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If White now extends on the left side, Black has the problem of getting work out of :bc: .

Edit: Unhidden.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
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Post by EdLee »

Kirby wrote:Should be :w5:, right?
Yes, if the two players agreed B could place the handi stones freely on the board,
then, for instance, on KGS, B chose to play :b1: ... :b4: on the star points, then it would be :w5: . :)
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Post by EdLee »

@Bill
EDIT: Unhidden after :w27:.
Bill Spight wrote:If White now extends on the left side, Black has the problem of getting work out of :bc: .
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I see, thanks. I did not care for :bc: when played.
But, given :bc:, a pincer around (a) like :b6: is a better combination than :b1: ?
Last edited by EdLee on Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Bill Spight
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Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Post by Bill Spight »

EdLee wrote:@Bill
Bill Spight wrote:If White now extends on the left side, Black has the problem of getting work out of :bc: .
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I see, thanks. I did not care for :bc: when played.
But, given :bc:, a pincer around (a) like :b6: is a better combination than :b1: ?
To me the clincher is that it makes the opening easier for Black.

Allowing a stronger player to make a double approach is no fun, but :wc: is too far away to be very severe. If it had been at "b", I would lean towards :b1:. :)

Edit: Unhidden.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
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— Winona Adkins

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Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Post by Sevis »

I am aware that the corner is worth a lot, and I am also very aware that I currently haven't secured a single one: that's why I'm currently trying to choose between re-enforcing the bottom-right or the top-right corner, or perhaps to start a fight in the bottom-right. I don't like that I've given the entire bottom away, but I think that white needs at least another play to fully secure the bottom-left corner, so I can still hope to live small there.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 7 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
About the possibility of me playing at :w7: -- it wouldn't be enough to secure the bottom, it wouldn't help to secure the top-left, and it would still leave white some fighting room in the corner, so I'm not sure why it would be good. I'm probably overseeing something, though.

I think it's too early for a fight, but again, will delay until morning. I hope people don't mind me posting my thoughts in two parts so often.

PS: Is the spoiler still a spoiler?
After my next move, I'll be gone for the weekend.
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Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Post by topazg »

Sevis wrote:PS: Is the spoiler still a spoiler?
As you are using joseki libraries anyway, probably not. It's up to you :)

It contains my plans for the top edge, but they are evolving anyway!
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Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Post by Sevis »

Yes, I've seen that combination. I think I would have played it even without joseki dictionaries, seeing as :b6: looks like the only move. I may have played :b8: at R17 or Q16, though, or maybe P14 if :w5: looked weak.

Seeing that this combination is likely has made me choose to play in the top-right, because playing that out would make me very strong there. I expect white to play either at the top or at the bottom -- I think the bottom, seeing as I will be more likely to reply there. If white approaches, I will either pincer or cap, seeing as I feel fairly confident in being able to defend that corner. I can't really say I like the variation, but there isn't much else -- perhaps a kick could work, as that would get me sente...

If white expands on the top-left, I'll expand the top right, and if white attacks the top-right from the left, I'll cap. Hopefully, that'll be enough to secure some territory. Just noticed that 7 is going to be a good ladder-breaker for white, so may consider approaching it to allow a ladder of my own from the top-right.

Yes, that seems like the best variation (i.e. won't happen)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm5 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 3 . . . , . . . 7 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 0 . 8 . 9 . . . 5 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
But, enough wishful thinking, it doesn't look very likely (and a white cap at H4 looks like it would leave the group very alone, while giving white a chance to build a wall in sente).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 7 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 9 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 7 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Still fairly happy with how the game has started. FWIW, I'm not likely to approach :b8: any time soon, knowing that I have the 3-3, or potentially the 3-4 at Q3, is good enough to reduce the urgency for me for now. As :b2: and :b8: are both low, I'm not too concerned about the development potential on the right, and that's one reason I'm playing this now. If you get a wall, I can still reduce it effectively. The lower left is interesting and complicated, for me at least. I haven't decided how best to be annoying in that corner, but it's nice to feel I'm not under any pressure to play there too early. The top left is very interesting to me, and I will decide what I do there based largely on how this corner ends up.
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Sevis
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Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Post by Sevis »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm9 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Just returned, will edit thoughts in once I've settled down a little.

EDIT:
Apart from being joseki, this move also seems to be the only decent move in the situation, as playing elsewhere would make white play where 2 now is. There is, however, one exception I see...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm9 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 1 5 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I can see this happening, but it looks like I'd end up with a lot of influence, rather little support for the bottom-right, and a very ugly shape. Perhaps, continuing...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm9 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 1 5 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 4 3 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 6 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This does good for the right, but I still don't like the shape at all.
Last edited by Sevis on Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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