Getting past your OK plateau

[shapenaji]

We don't need to take "2" on faith alone, either. I, at least, have had the experience dozens of times of "feeling" that I was no good at something, only to later realize that either I wasn't getting instruction, or I wasn't practicing enough, or both. You can only have that experience so many times before it becomes reasonable to completely discount the feeling of natural incompetence.

A trend isn't proof though. We cannot be sure that go is like those other things.

[topazg]

This thread has been really interesting. I actually figured people would find the idea that they could be better but aren't doing well enough really disheartening. It looks like a few people dislike the idea that they'll never be able to get that good regardless of effort even more disheartening. Am I reading between the lines too much here?

[jts]

Shapenaji:

We don't need to take "2" on faith alone, either. I, at least, have had the experience dozens of times of "feeling" that I was no good at something, only to later realize that either I wasn't getting instruction, or I wasn't practicing enough, or both. You can only have that experience so many times before it becomes reasonable to completely discount the feeling of natural incompetence.

A trend isn't proof though. We cannot be sure that go is like those other things.

First of all, even if we can't be sure, it's good prima facie evidence.

Secondly, I've noticed (and again, I could just be speaking for me) that the feeling that I've just reached my mental or physical limits and can't do any better is always the same. My point isn't so much about the nature of go, but about how difficult it is to conceive of becoming good at something you're not good at.

If I feel that I'm hungry, that intuition is an excellent sign that my stomach will feel more and more painful, my mood will deteriorate, and I'll get tired. If I feel that I'm thirsty, I have every reason to believe that I will soon start to feel the preliminary symptoms of dehydration. If I feel that I'm tired, that intuition gives me evidence that I will get increasingly stupid, disconnected, have difficulty focusing, may spontaneously fall asleep, and eventually start hallucinating.

My only point, really, is that the feeling that you've reached your mental limits isn't like one of these. It's completely non-informative about whether you have, in fact, reached your mental limits or not, because it's a feeling that crops up regardless of what the problem is.

Topazg:

This thread has been really interesting. I actually figured people would find the idea that they could be better but aren't doing well enough really disheartening. It looks like a few people dislike the idea that they'll never be able to get that good regardless of effort even more disheartening. Am I reading between the lines too much here?

I don't know that it's a matter of heartening or disheartening. In the past, when I decided I was just no good at piano, tennis, sailing, dancing, physics, skiing or, for that matter, go, I didn't experience it as disheartening. There were other things where I had never felt like I had reached my limits, so I just spent my time on those things instead. But over time, I've realized that I just didn't work hard enough at those things, and if I had, I would be good at them today - so I try not to let feelings of incompetence stand in my way anymore.

I started to come to this perspective after college when, trying to compliment a new acquaintance doing doctoral work in quantum physics, I declared myself in awe of anyone who was smart enough to read those 4-page physics papers covered in formulae, because I couldn't get to the second paragraph without forgetting what I'd read in the first paragraph.

"Oh yeah," he said, "well, it's hard for me too. I'd spend at least eight hours reading a paper like that." It had never occurred to me that physics was hard work for everybody.

[Perception]

This thread has been really interesting. I actually figured people would find the idea that they could be better but aren't doing well enough really disheartening. It looks like a few people dislike the idea that they'll never be able to get that good regardless of effort even more disheartening. Am I reading between the lines too much here?

I'm in the latter group. I would feel much more discouraged if I thought that no matter how much effort I put into something I couldn't get better. I can control, to some extent, how much time and effort I put into something. If I felt that my ability to improve at something was out of my control then why bother putting any more time or effort in? It would just feel like a waste.

As I do feel like it's a matter of time and effort and that each person doesn't have some random limit to how good they can get I'm willing to do things I don't like to do to try to improve. I know tsumego is good for improving reading ability and improving reading ability is important for getting stronger, I don't like tsumego but I'm willing to spend a few hours on it every day (as long as I have no other commitments) to try to improve.

[ethanb]

[quote=entropi]
I think the time spent for this discussion is not more wasted than the time spent for memorizing one joseki variation.[/quote]

Was that intentional? (thinking of the proverb)

[daal]

I would feel much more discouraged if I thought that no matter how much effort I put into something I couldn't get better. I can control, to some extent, how much time and effort I put into something. If I felt that my ability to improve at something was out of my control then why bother putting any more time or effort in?

Um, because you enjoy playing? I've gotten progressively worse at basketball over the last 25 years and that hasn't stopped me from practicing my jump shot.

[topazg]

I don't know that it's a matter of heartening or disheartening. In the past, when I decided I was just no good at piano, tennis, sailing, dancing, physics, skiing or, for that matter, go, I didn't experience it as disheartening. There were other things where I had never felt like I had reached my limits, so I just spent my time on those things instead. But over time, I've realized that I just didn't work hard enough at those things, and if I had, I would be good at them today - so I try not to let feelings of incompetence stand in my way anymore.

Thank you, it's a useful insight. I suppose "getting better" is something that appears to have more importance to other people than it does to me (with the exception of my professional skillset because that puts bread on the table - improving here is often a chore rather than a satisfaction however). That is to say, I enjoy improving at anything I do, but it's not a requirement of my participation; I choose to do things because I enjoy them first and foremost, and most other things are a distant second. I'll never be Martha Argerich, but I enjoy playing the piano. I'll never be Pele, but I enjoy kicking a football around with friends. I'll never be Lee Sedol, but I enjoy playing Go, and so on.

If I'm bad at something (tennis for example, I really suck at tennis) that doesn't stop me enjoy playing it. My wife is a far better Rummy player than I am, but we still get cards out so I can get beaten every now and again because I enjoy sitting down playing with her.

I suppose I shouldn't really be participating in a thread that is geared around inspiring people to make progress at their Go, I suppose I always have concerns that if people are left with the impression they can get great at something if only they discipline themselves better, a failure to improve can generate even stronger feelings of incompetence than it did before - sorry if I've been discouraging to people on this thread, I'll probably observe from now on

[entropi]

Apparently we are of different opinions in that respect.

Somebody is stuck at a certain level. This can mean two things:
1-he has reached his mental limits
2-he is training the wrong way (if at all )

You optimistically chose the second options.
.....
Come on, that's the whole discussion. How can you say 2 is most certainly true without any proof? What I am saying is that you cannot know! With which piece of information are you saying "No, I do know"?

There is no value in believing 1. There is value in believing 2. That belief alone can be enough to cause someone to improve.

I've plateaued 3 times, once at 5k, once at 1k, and now. Belief that I had not reached my mental limits allowed me to progress beyond each one.

You certainly cannot know, but this is where faith comes in handy.

If your ultimate goal in life is improving in go, you are right, there is no value in believing 1. But my point of view is that accepting 1 but still being able to enjoy playing, is an achievement.

I know people who completely stopped playing simply because they had hard time to accept that they reached their mental limits. This should not be.

If I am able to accept that at my age I will never ever be able run 100 meters under 10 seconds, but still enjoy jogging, I should be able to do the same at Go.

[jts]

I suppose "getting better" is something that appears to have more importance to other people than it does to me ...

It's not really change for it's own sake that interests me, I just think most activities are more fun when you're good at them. There's normally a steep curve from "what is this I don't even" to "oh, this is kind of fun" to "wow, this is fascinating and beautiful."

[entropi]

I think the time spent for this discussion is not more wasted than the time spent for memorizing one joseki variation.

Was that intentional? (thinking of the proverb)

Which proverb? Hehe, apparently that was not intentional. I hope what I miss won't turn out to be something embarassing

[ethanb]

I think the time spent for this discussion is not more wasted than the time spent for memorizing one joseki variation.

Was that intentional? (thinking of the proverb)

Which proverb? Hehe, apparently that was not intentional. I hope what I miss won't turn out to be something embarassing

"Study joseki, and lose two stones" (in strength)

[shapenaji]

If your ultimate goal in life is improving in go, you are right, there is no value in believing 1. But my point of view is that accepting 1 but still being able to enjoy playing, is an achievement.

I don't think having your ultimate goal be "improvement at go" is necessary to undercut 1. The question of whether or not to believe in 1 or 2, is a broader question, about the limits of human potential, and whether we're anywhere near them.

Believing that you have not reached your mental limits is not the same as poor self-assessment. If someone believes they are better than they are, well, that's dangerous, in many fields. (Life-threatening in some)

However, if you'd like to leave the door open on improvement, you'd better believe there's something behind it. As I see it, a belief in 2, rather than 1, leaves both doors open. I can pursue it, or choose not to. If I believe in 1, when I hit a plateau, I can never even look for the door, because I don't believe in it.

(See: SEP fields)

Just because I believe the door is there, doesn't mean I have to walk through it.

I know people who completely stopped playing simply because they had hard time to accept that they reached their mental limits. This should not be.

See, this doesn't sound like they reached their mental limits, this sounds like they had a hard time with where they were, upon examining themselves, they didn't like what they saw, and continuing to play forced them to have to keep looking in the mirror.

You can accept who you are AND accept that you have untapped potential, these are not mutually exclusive. And unfortunately, these people sound as though they were driven to find the latter by envy, rather than curiosity.

If I am able to accept that at my age I will never ever be able run 100 meters under 10 seconds, but still enjoy jogging, I should be able to do the same at Go.

You are welcome to enjoy running, but the question is, could you be better than you are now? Where's the value in saying "no"?

[Perception]

I would feel much more discouraged if I thought that no matter how much effort I put into something I couldn't get better. I can control, to some extent, how much time and effort I put into something. If I felt that my ability to improve at something was out of my control then why bother putting any more time or effort in?

Um, because you enjoy playing? I've gotten progressively worse at basketball over the last 25 years and that hasn't stopped me from practicing my jump shot.

I enjoy playing but I always feel dissapointed in myself when I know I've made a mistake or when I find more mistakes while reviewing my games. That's why I want to improve, I want to make less mistakes and not feel like I played poorly. If I thought I could never improve it wouldn't be worth it because I'm not happy with the level I play at right now. Even if I make it to 4 or 5 or 6 dan (or stronger) I may still be unhappy with my level of play but I won't quit before I find out.

[entropi]

If I am able to accept that at my age I will never ever be able run 100 meters under 10 seconds, but still enjoy jogging, I should be able to do the same at Go.

You are welcome to enjoy running, but the question is, could you be better than you are now? Where's the value in saying "no"?

Trying to improve above a certain level means devoting oneself to the goal, disciplined working, reviewing training methods etc etc etc. In other words, it's an investment. Like any other investment it causes a certain degree of stress simply because it brings uncertainty (i.e. you cannot be sure you will improve whatever you invest).

The value of saying "no" is that it saves you this stress and leaves you alone with the joy of playing Go at your present level. Of course at the cost of "no further improvement". That's a trade.

And false (at least according to me false) assumptions like "anybody can hit 5d with correct training" only distort your view in making the correct decision in that respect.

The real question is what Go means for you. Is it the improvement or is it the playing, what you enjoy? Likewise, if I just jog for health, what would be reason for me to invest getting faster at 100m?

But of course, this does not mean that I would definitely refuse to learn new things at Go simply because I don't foresee any improvement. I would still enjoy learning new shapes, new tesujis, new concepts, and maybe the improvement will come just by itself naturally. But I would definitely not invest much time in training positional judgement, or memorizing joseki, or studying fuseki (all of which I hate) etc.

[Perception]

I'm willing to do things I don't like to do to try to improve. I know tsumego is good for improving reading ability and improving reading ability is important for getting stronger, I don't like tsumego but I'm willing to spend a few hours on it every day (as long as I have no other commitments) to try to improve.

Why not be a person who enjoys doing tsumego?

I wish I did. If I did it would be much easier to spend a lot of time on it. I do enjoy some tsumego but it may be that I spend too much time on problems that are too easy or too hard. For example, I'm working through Cho Chikun's Ecyclopedia of Life and Death - Intermediate level and it's just boring. I think there are two reasons I find it boring, the problems are mostly easy for me and the problems are arranged in a way that a lot of very similar problems come up in a row. I have other problem collections but I've worked through them multiple times already except for the problems that are too difficult.