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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #421 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:22 pm 
Judan
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BIC:
So we'll use the screaming yelow zonker tesuji.

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #422 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:21 pm 
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Black internal chat
what to do what to do...
I really want to try to connect to that single black stone(a and b are some ideas)... but it is sooo complicated if even possible...
I know I don:t want to play at (d) for sure... letting white run up that way is bad... huge moyo for white then...
Running black up with z might be ok... not sure I like that either though...
Could always play a big point in all that empty space in the board... eh...
what to do what to do...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . z . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O d . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . b a . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #423 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:06 pm 
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suggestion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I still think this is the way to go. We get some much needed eye-space, and in sente since we threated to save our lone stone on the side. We're fairly safe after this, maybe we can talk a point like a?

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #424 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:07 pm 
Judan
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Again, I'm going to play without waiting for other suggestions because it is the only move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



BIC:
So I assume that they play S5. Do we then have space for two eyes if we need it? I think that 'a' and 'b' are miai for life. Are they?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , X a . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



To observers:
I hope that one of my teammates observes that :b1: below is sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . 4 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O 5 O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #425 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:35 pm 
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I vote descend.
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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #426 Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:06 am 
Gosei

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White suggestion:

Descend looks most solid, but since it's taken I have suggest something more else:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . W X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This can lead to very interesting variations. I tried to read some of them, and we seemed to come out fine.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #427 Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:16 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O 8 . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


@Team:

Thanks Red and TJ, me too :)
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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #428 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:57 pm 
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black internal chat:
ok now that we have miai, I refer back to my last internal chat items...
diagram edited for recent moves...

Jordus wrote:
Black internal chat
[hide]what to do what to do...
I really want to try to connect to that single black stone(a and b are some ideas)... but it is sooo complicated if even possible...
I know I don:t want to play at (d) for sure... letting white run up that way is bad... huge moyo for white then...
Running black up with z might be ok... not sure I like that either though...
Could always play a big point in all that empty space in the board... eh...
what to do what to do...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . z . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O d . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . b a . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[/Hide]

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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #429 Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:10 pm 
Gosei
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Black suggestion:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 9 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . Z O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't think white is going to play a gote move to neutralize :bc: right now, so trying to use the aji right now seems premature. My suggestion feels big, taking fourth line territory. It also relates to the ladder in the middle, so may be helpful if we decide to rescue the cutting stone :bx:.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #430 Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:26 pm 
Judan
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BIC / @Fwiffo:
I like your style. But are you absolutely sure that we have eyes in the lower right?

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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #431 Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:13 pm 
Gosei
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Black internal chat:
Well, it sure feels weird to have two open sides like that, but I couldn't read out a killing sequence (though S3 feels like a good place to try). Not that it means there isn't one. But they have to make sure we're 100% sealed in first, right?

I have a couple teammates who haven't suggested moves yet - if they think we're in danger of dying, I'm sure one of them will suggest a move to save our bacon. Although if it weren't a team game, I guess I would have to play S4.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #432 Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:54 pm 
Judan
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Black internal chat:
fwiffo wrote:
... But they have to make sure we're 100% sealed in first, right?


Yes, and someone on our team has to make sure that they can't. :-?
It can't be me, for even if I see a sequence to live, I can't play it unless you folks nominate the moves for me.

I like your move. I really want to play it, for it is the last big corner play on the board. But I have to know that we don't die big in the middle because of it.


To observers:
I have not analyzed exhaustively, but so far, I think that we live. However, one of my teammates has to tell me that he knows that we live. I can't do it myself. :grumpy:

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #433 Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:48 pm 
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Black internal chat

if we are really worried about that group and want to play for eyes then our choices are
Joaz:s as formentioned a and b miai...
my first instinct is to play c or d
after thinking about it I kind of like e...



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , X a . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . d . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O b c e . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #434 Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:21 pm 
Gosei
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Black suggestion:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , X a . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . d . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O b c e . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The more I look at it, it seems kinda crazy that we'd be unconditionally alive in such a small space with two open skirts, so I don't trust my reading. I think a is probably the best way to live so that's my new suggestion. If one of my teammates think I was right the first time, they can resuggest my previous move.

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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #435 Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:37 pm 
Lives in gote
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black suggestion
Ugh, I hate it, but according to my reading we're not alive unconditionally.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , X a . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . d . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O b c e . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm going to suggest b though, because if a the placement of e is very painful. Of course we could always play in the upper right, let white reduce us to one eye in gote, and then somehow muddle through with our sente.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #436 Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:13 pm 
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BIC:
Jedo wrote:
...Ugh, I hate it, but according to my reading we're not alive unconditionally...


So please show us. If one of your colleagues can find a flaw in it, Fwiffo can revert to his original suggestion and we can tenuki to the upper left.

EDIT: Never mind. I agree with you.

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #437 Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:56 pm 
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I think we are alive... I'm not sure I see a way for white to kill us.. so fwiffo's suggestion could be played...

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Offline Tamara
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #438 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:13 am 
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@Observers:
I'd be interested to know if any observers have read out this corner? It seems to be giving both sides a headache, and my DDK reading skills aren't up to the task. Is that black group alive?
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #439 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:27 pm 
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Tamara wrote:
@Observers:
I'd be interested to know if any observers have read out this corner? It seems to be giving both sides a headache, and my DDK reading skills aren't up to the task. Is that black group alive?


Tamara:
It's almost certainly dead if black doesn't add a move, according to my reading.
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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #440 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Black internal:
Well Jordus, Jedo and I have suggested moves that try to live and I rescinded my tenuki. We're just waiting on you, so you can re-suggest my tenuki, or suggest another move to live, or suggest a different tenuki (even though mine is impossible to improve on :mrgreen:.)

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