Big Brother Malkovich #3

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Phelan
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Post by Phelan »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Move 16... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-7(6) W-9(10)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure I understand :w6:. I thought we were too weak to invade it at this point, but it doesn't seem to be what Marcus thinks. I see no good way of continuing...

This allows Black to connect under:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Connect under
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 6 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This strengthens black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Not good
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 9 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Not good either
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , 9 . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think my move will have to be changed...but I don't see what Marcus' intention is.
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
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Aphelion
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Post by Aphelion »

Could you guys only label or mark the latest move? Its rather annoying have to look at the highest number to see the move has just been made.
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jts
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Post by jts »

Aphelion wrote:Could you guys only label or mark the latest move? Its rather annoying have to look at the highest number to see the move has just been made.


Do other people have the same preference?
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Chew Terr
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Post by Chew Terr »

Yes, except in the obvious exception case of triggers, in which every move needs labelling.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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robinz
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Post by robinz »

I agree with Aphelion - it's very confusing seeing all those numbers on one diagram.
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jts
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Post by jts »

It's no skin off my back. This is with Phelan's most recent move, Marcus to approve:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Move 16... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-7(6) W-9(10)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Marcus
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Post by Marcus »

Not Approved.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Move 16... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-7(6) W-8(10)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black needs to be kept separated. Running fight ... begin!

Man, now I regret changing the previous move ... it doesn't look like Phelan is familiar with this fight ... I apologize to Violence, as he's most likely tearing his hair out watching our number of changes drop ... :(
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Aphelion
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Post by Aphelion »

I think in general, Big Brothers need to realize that its a better to accept an slightly inferior move that the little Brother understands the follow up to than a good move which doesn't communicate a clear message to Little Brother. The role of corrections is frequently to decisively change the tone of a game or as a safety parachute (or killing blow, as the case may be)

It can be a bit infuriating to new Big Brothers - who wants to sit by passively in their own game? The urge to be actively involved can be very strong.
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Shaddy
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Post by Shaddy »

Obs.
That sound is the sound of Violence going nuts.
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Violence
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Post by Violence »

Are you kidding me?

So since I can't communicate with Marcus directly, the only way I can stop him from correcting more moves is to make him start second guessing himself. I will do that by immediately making him doubt his own judgment, hopefully making his changes much more conservative.


Rejected.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Move 16... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-7(6) W-6(10)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Post by Aphelion »

@Violence
Violence wrote:So since I can't communicate with Marcus directly, the only way I can stop him from correcting more moves is to make him start second guessing himself. I will do that by immediately making him doubt his own judgment, hopefully making his changes much more conservative.
I realize you feel you need to do this now, but do you think this will adversely affect the team as the game goes on? Also, is this the move you would have picked purely from a efficiency standpoint?
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Post by daniel_the_smith »

I hope that wasn't Violence's thought process in the other game... :/
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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jts
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Post by jts »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Move 16... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-7(6) W-6(10)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I believe I already explained my rationale for this - our group is happily burrowed into the corner, W can only defend one of C8 and D4, C10 is pretty dispensable.

If this move gets changed, I assume it will be to E10. But one stone is aji, and there's no way that W can neutralize C10 completely by adding another stone. On the other hand, with Be10, Wc3, suddenly the situation is reversed - we have two weak groups and can only defend one.

I'm surprised Violence changed the move back. I sort of cringed when Marcus made that change, although I was still planning on going ahead with c3 as our follow-up. From my point of view, d9-c3-j3 is a much better sequence for W than e8-c3-j3, because B's follow-up is more constrained.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Post by Violence »

Aphelion:
It might make things worse later, but I need him to stop correcting things now. If he stops looking at why moves are bad and instead thinks about how the move can BECOME good, then he'll be in the spot I want him to be in.

And yes, the kosumi in fact is leaning on black's stones and makes them stronger, while this jump feels like the only move.

You can't connect under without taking quite some damage anyways, and it keeps white out of trouble.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3

Post by dangomango »

approved
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