Fuseki Problem

Numsgil · **#21**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Original Game: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I really don't like 10, as it makes 8 badly placed (as has been pointed out), and white's bottom left corner is still a bit precarious. But then black ignores the whole affair to make a big move at the top. I'd consider a play by either player around the 8/9 stones to be urgent for either player (ie: not just big), so I find it weird that both players ignored it. I would be absolutely amazed if this were much above a ~7k game; these are just some really fundamental mistakes. Lone stones in contact like 8/9, off more or less on their own without any other stones nearby are about as clearcut urgent as I can imagine, unless you're trying to be sneaky and sacrifice them, and even then it's suspect.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Original Game: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . 4 . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the move order I'd make as both players, given the present board. It's honestly a little tricky because both players have oddly placed groups that need attention (a sure sign that something has gone awry earlier in the game). Like I don't like leaving C8 to fend for itself in contact against a stronger group, but I guess at this point black can just treat it lightly, and if white makes moves against it he can get free moves against white's bottom corner group. That is, the stone is not being used effectively, but I don't think that can be helped at this point.

The 3rd stone is placed to create a base for the two white stones. I feel like if you descend as white here you almost have to play 3 here (or one line higher) in order to make the small wall meaningful. Tighter towards the 4-4 stone and you leave your small wall here vulnerable, and white can't afford yet one more weak group to tend to. (plus 4-4 stones can usually fend for themselves, so I don't consider it as urgent as stabilizing the wall).

4 is probably a more stylistic choice than a necessity, but it does form a weak attack against two groups at once, which is always good (which is why I don't like white's approach to the corner initially). The result is a huge running battle that involves something like 6 different groups. The resulting fight will be a horrible mess that will spew stones well into the center of the board, and should favor whichever player has a stronger strategic sense (reading skill doesn't hurt, either) as all the weak groups struggle to stay ahead.

Magicwand · **#22**

Numsgil wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Original Game: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I really don't like 10, as it makes 8 badly placed (as has been pointed out), and white's bottom left corner is still a bit precarious. But then black ignores the whole affair to make a big move at the top. I'd consider a play by either player around the 8/9 stones to be urgent for either player (ie: not just big), so I find it weird that both players ignored it. I would be absolutely amazed if this were much above a ~7k game; these are just some really fundamental mistakes. Lone stones in contact like 8/9, off more or less on their own without any other stones nearby are about as clearcut urgent as I can imagine, unless you're trying to be sneaky and sacrifice them, and even then it's suspect.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Original Game: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . 4 . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the move order I'd make as both players, given the present board. It's honestly a little tricky because both players have oddly placed groups that need attention (a sure sign that something has gone awry earlier in the game). Like I don't like leaving C8 to fend for itself in contact against a stronger group, but I guess at this point black can just treat it lightly, and if white makes moves against it he can get free moves against white's bottom corner group. That is, the stone is not being used effectively, but I don't think that can be helped at this point.

The 3rd stone is placed to create a base for the two white stones. I feel like if you descend as white here you almost have to play 3 here (or one line higher) in order to make the small wall meaningful. Tighter towards the 4-4 stone and you leave your small wall here vulnerable, and white can't afford yet one more weak group to tend to. (plus 4-4 stones can usually fend for themselves, so I don't consider it as urgent as stabilizing the wall).

4 is probably a more stylistic choice than a necessity, but it does form a weak attack against two groups at once, which is always good (which is why I don't like white's approach to the corner initially). The result is a huge running battle that involves something like 6 different groups. The resulting fight will be a horrible mess that will spew stones well into the center of the board, and should favor whichever player has a stronger strategic sense (reading skill doesn't hurt, either) as all the weak groups struggle to stay ahead.

i didnt read all your comment but... only choice for :w10:

is as below IMO.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Original Game: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . 0 4 . . . . . . . . . C . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Aphelion · **#23**

The move order isn't part of the problem, its pulled out of my rear end

That said, I think I tried to make it as reasonable as possible. The very position itself indicates that something weird happened.

As I mentioned before, I think C3 is bigger than C9 because C3 concerns a group, whereas C9 only concerns a lone stone that can be treated light. Strengthening the bottom with C3 also makes P3 looks much better.

amnal · **#24**

Aphelion wrote:

The move order isn't part of the problem, its pulled out of my rear end

That said, I think I tried to make it as reasonable as possible. The very position itself indicates that something weird happened.

As I mentioned before, I think C3 is bigger than C9 because C3 concerns a group, whereas C9 only concerns a lone stone that can be treated light. Strengthening the bottom with C3 also makes P3 looks much better.

The comments are on the move order that oso has given from the game source - which, to be honest, are even stranger (and worse

) than your suggestions

Aphelion · **#25**

Oops, I just saw it. Wow. I feel like I've been transported to bizarro world. Oso, could you possibly upload the ebook (if its not against copyright) or at least give us the title and author? I have a feeling it might not be the best education material...

Dusk Eagle · **#26**

Close enough...

Numsgil · **#27**

Magicwand wrote:

Numsgil wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Original Game: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I really don't like 10, as it makes 8 badly placed (as has been pointed out), and white's bottom left corner is still a bit precarious. But then black ignores the whole affair to make a big move at the top. I'd consider a play by either player around the 8/9 stones to be urgent for either player (ie: not just big), so I find it weird that both players ignored it. I would be absolutely amazed if this were much above a ~7k game; these are just some really fundamental mistakes. Lone stones in contact like 8/9, off more or less on their own without any other stones nearby are about as clearcut urgent as I can imagine, unless you're trying to be sneaky and sacrifice them, and even then it's suspect.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Original Game: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . 4 . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the move order I'd make as both players, given the present board. It's honestly a little tricky because both players have oddly placed groups that need attention (a sure sign that something has gone awry earlier in the game). Like I don't like leaving C8 to fend for itself in contact against a stronger group, but I guess at this point black can just treat it lightly, and if white makes moves against it he can get free moves against white's bottom corner group. That is, the stone is not being used effectively, but I don't think that can be helped at this point.

The 3rd stone is placed to create a base for the two white stones. I feel like if you descend as white here you almost have to play 3 here (or one line higher) in order to make the small wall meaningful. Tighter towards the 4-4 stone and you leave your small wall here vulnerable, and white can't afford yet one more weak group to tend to. (plus 4-4 stones can usually fend for themselves, so I don't consider it as urgent as stabilizing the wall).

4 is probably a more stylistic choice than a necessity, but it does form a weak attack against two groups at once, which is always good (which is why I don't like white's approach to the corner initially). The result is a huge running battle that involves something like 6 different groups. The resulting fight will be a horrible mess that will spew stones well into the center of the board, and should favor whichever player has a stronger strategic sense (reading skill doesn't hurt, either) as all the weak groups struggle to stay ahead.

i didnt read all your comment but... only choice for :w10:

is as below IMO.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Original Game: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . 0 4 . . . . . . . . . C . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yeah, that's rather urgent, too. It makes a good bit of sense, too, since you make the white corner group strong in addition to weakening black's group. So actually, thinking about it again, it makes more sense to do 10 (or 12) here and sacrifice the lone white stone at 8.

But if we assume from the 8/9 exchange that both players are fine with the health of their corner, having played 8, white should respond after black 9. It's not even a matter of reading; it's just "basic instinct". If you get touched you respond. By the time we get to move 10 we have too many fires to put out, so the whole problem is a bit sour, but it's so easy to fix the 8/9 exchange mistake that I wanted to specifically point it out.

This is actually an interesting problem just because there are so many mistakes that it's easy to get overwhelmed and hard to structure constructive thoughts about it. Every move that fixes one problem leaves another gaping hole elsewhere. You have to identify several areas of weakness and apply triage to figure out which is the most important.

Aphelion · **#28**

Its even more basic instinct that White 6 should be at c3. This why this problem is so counter intuitive, this should never happen in a real game.

Also, you can think of :w8:

as a shoulder hit, so its still acceptable

.

topazg · **#29**

Aphelion wrote:

Its even more basic instinct that White 6 should be at c3. This why this problem is so counter intuitive, this should never happen in a real game.

Also, you can think of :w8:

as a shoulder hit, so its still acceptable

.

And of course, it's unacceptable that Black ignored it, so White should C10

It's a cruel problem when two fundamental must play basic instinct moves are screaming on the board at the same time. I'm beginning to prefer C3 too I think. I still think White's two stones can be seriously attacked in the top left and cut completely apart, but I also think White can't afford Black to wedge the bottom now he's approached the lower right. It's an all round disaster for White whichever way you look at it I think. Black too

Aphelion · **#30**

Topazg:

If it makes you feel better, you can think of it like in this joseki where White can tenuki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . 2 . . . , $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . ,[/go]

Its a bit of a stretch, but you could call it a very poorly timed reduction :lol:

. I don't see the danger you are talking about on the top though, as far as I can see White should easily get sente to fix it.

topazg · **#31**

Aphelion wrote:

Topazg:

If it makes you feel better, you can think of it like in this joseki where White can tenuki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . 2 . . . , $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . ,[/go]

Its a bit of a stretch, but you could call it a very poorly timed reduction :lol:

. I don't see the danger you are talking about on the top though, as far as I can see White should easily get sente to fix it.

In your example, White has no great purpose to :w2:

other than to reduce. In the posted fuseki, White has an important relationship with the top left hoshi stone. The value of getting to get C10 and then respond to the approach is really very high - not just from territorial points, but the followup of a pincer against the approach stone too.

Forcing Black to run up that side rips White's potential territory (which, IMO, is ~25 points) and get points himself. Of course, C3 is huge, and they both feel possibly more than a swing value of 25 points, but White can't easily treat D10 lightly without losing out really quite badly locally in the top left.

This game is just a headache waiting to happen

Numsgil · **#32**

Aphelion wrote:

Its even more basic instinct that White 6 should be at c3.

Very true.

topazg wrote:

This game is just a headache waiting to happen

It does seem to be a fairly even board, too, which at least still makes it an interesting problem, in a perverse sort of way.

Fuseki Problem

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