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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #1 Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:46 pm 
Judan
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I've been reading "A Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - The Korean Style" from Kisedo. ( It is heavy on diagrams, with little connective text. But if you work at it, you can get some of the idea of what is going on. )

There are problems in the back of the book. I'm starting on them, to see if I have really learned anything. I invite others to join me.

For the diagram below, they ask which white move is better to contest black's growing strength in the top right:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X a . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline emerus
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #2 Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:50 pm 
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I would say B because just taking the corner will give black too much influence. Reduce rather than invade.

Wbaduk has some interesting opening/judgement problems that I do extremely poorly on so this will be interesting to follow.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #3 Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:54 pm 
Judan
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My initial opinion is this:
The corner is invadable, at either R16 or R17. To invade the corner compels black to build the outside wall which greatly restricts the success of follow up moves to 'b' ( someplace around 'c' ).
But the most likely responses to 'b' will still leave the corner invadable.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X a . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #4 Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:01 pm 
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I'll guess 'b'. If you play 'a', this sequence might happen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . 2 4 . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . 6 X 1 . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 8 , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And white's group is still kind of weak, meaning black will likely profit along the top.

Meanwhile, if you play 'b', you can reduce the side, invade the top corner if black answers with a keima, and your stone helps put slight pressure on the top.

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Offline emerus
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #5 Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:11 pm 
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Dusk Eagle wrote:
I'll guess 'b'. If you play 'a', this sequence might happen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . 2 4 . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . 6 X 1 . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 8 , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And white's group is still kind of weak, meaning black will likely profit along the top.

Meanwhile, if you play 'b', you can reduce the side, invade the top corner if black answers with a keima, and your stone helps put slight pressure on the top.


I personally wouldnt mind this as W. I do think W owes another move locally so B will have sente.

Personally I feel more worried about another variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . 0 7 . 5 . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X 1 9 . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 8 |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black feels too strong and white too gote...
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Offline CnP
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #6 Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:40 pm 
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I've got no chance ! but
I like the the probe at a - in disagreement with all the much stronger players :lol: :lol:
Mainly because it reminds me a lot of an example in Strategic concepts of Go (G6), e.g. page 55. Force black to settle his shape then take advantage or preserve aji or something .. clearly probes aren't always right though.. still I like trying new things.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #7 Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Dusk Eagle wrote:
... If you play 'a', this sequence might happen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . 2 4 . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . 6 X 1 . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 8 , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And white's group is still kind of weak, meaning black will likely profit along the top.
...


If I thought that black would force me outward as shown above, I'd play 'a' without hesitation.
This looks good for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . e . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , 2 . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . 1 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 X , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White's invasion is looking hard to kill, and he still has secondary invasions around 'd' and 'e'.

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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #8 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:40 am 
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I would play 'b', aiming at making black overconcentrated. For example, if :b2: then :w3: becomes perfect:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

'a' doesn't really make me happy, because a black wall towards the center without a white reduction in place looks too good for black (I think):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Stable
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #9 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:09 am 
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I'm with Gaius and Joaz on this. When will you look at the answer J?
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #10 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:06 am 
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it is nice to talk about which move is better but...
at our (not pro) level it doesnt matter which move we select.
they both are very good moves IMO.
from looking at two..i feel they are both excellent moves.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #11 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:21 am 
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But if we learn to make all the choices like a pro, we will be as strong as a pro. :D

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #12 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:11 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
But if we learn to make all the choices like a pro, we will be as strong as a pro. :D


my point is that this problem is beyond the scope of amature players.
it will be more beneficial for us to study problems that actually help us get stronger.
i think even professionals will disagree on which move is better.

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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #13 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:36 pm 
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Magicwand wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
But if we learn to make all the choices like a pro, we will be as strong as a pro. :D


my point is that this problem is beyond the scope of amature players.
it will be more beneficial for us to study problems that actually help us get stronger.
i think even professionals will disagree on which move is better.

While I agree, I also think that if you enjoy thinking about problems like these, you can still get benefit from it. The benefit may be low, but if it's far more enjoyable to some people than other types of problems, there's nothing wrong with doing them.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #14 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:06 pm 
Judan
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It appears that the concensus of 'b' is correct, and Gaius came very close to the exact answer:

Dictionary of Modern Fuseki wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1 wrong answer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . 8 7 . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X 1 5 . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...after 10, black's stones are thick and their influence is overwhelming...white needs one more move to secure the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1 right answer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X 0 6 5 3 . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . 9 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1 right answer continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X X X O O 3 . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . O X X 1 . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...white's territory is better than black's influence.


They don't mention anything about overconcentration, but I think that it is implied here.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #15 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:27 pm 
Judan
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Problem 2 is here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3401

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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #16 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:17 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
It appears that the concensus of 'b' is correct, and Gaius came very close to the exact answer:

Dictionary of Modern Fuseki wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1 wrong answer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . 8 7 . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X 1 5 . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...after 10, black's stones are thick and their influence is overwhelming...white needs one more move to secure the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1 right answer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X 0 6 5 3 . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . 9 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1 right answer continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X X X O O 3 . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . O X X 1 . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...white's territory is better than black's influence.


They don't mention anything about overconcentration, but I think that it is implied here.


:b2: in the first right answer diagram is not good, IMO. :)

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #17 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:43 pm 
Judan
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Bill Spight wrote:
...
:b2: in the first right answer diagram is not good, IMO. :)


I could believe that; for it does seem to lend itself to over-concentration. But what is the alternative?

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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #18 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:02 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
...
:b2: in the first right answer diagram is not good, IMO. :)


I could believe that; for it does seem to lend itself to over-concentration. But what is the alternative?


In that quadrant, R-15 looks good, to secure the corner. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #19 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:12 pm 
Judan
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Bill Spight wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
...
:b2: in the first right answer diagram is not good, IMO. :)


I could believe that; for it does seem to lend itself to over-concentration. But what is the alternative?


In that quadrant, R-15 looks good, to secure the corner. :)


You would allow this?



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Post #20 Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:47 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
In that quadrant, R-15 looks good, to secure the corner. :)


You would allow this?



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sure. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I like the exchange, :w3: - :b4:. :) Black's right side is strengthened.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 2 , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hmmm. Maybe this is better than securing the corner.

Magicwand, do you have an opinion about this play? :)

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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