103. EdLee vs topazg

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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Aphelion
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by Aphelion »

EdLee:

Why not push through? It seems to be worth a few more points without really destroying any aji, and gives you 'a' endgame.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X X 1 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 3 O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by Dusk Eagle »

I would play the same as EdLee did.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After :w1:- :b2:, white can still push at 'a' anytime.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

@topazg: I just joined this thread, so please pardon the late question.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In the above position, you played 'a' with no explanation. Did you consider 'b'?
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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topazg
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In a rush Joaz, so no time to give a proper response just yet - will send one through in a couple of hours :)
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Solomon
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by Solomon »

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topazg
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by topazg »

@Joaz:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . d . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . e . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To be honest, it was just personal preference, I don't think I can honestly give a justification as to why one is better or worse than the other. The left and top are both very interesting. I'd rather not approach the lower left just yet, so that leaves "a", "b", "c", "d", or "e" I think. I've been keeping a reasonable eye on professional games recently, so I've been happy with anything that I would want to play anyway, that looks similar to a move and position where it was played professionally. The idea is we both top corners want to develop the top, and both left corners want to develop the left, so by approaching here I either get to develop the top (although I was planning on sliding and pulling back at J17 rather than my normal move at K16), or I get to double approach. Had he played the pincer I was expecting at J16, I'd prepared C14 in response.

Here are the beginnings to some recent, contextually similar, professional games :)

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[7.50]
PW[Xie He]PB[Gu Li]WR[7d]BR[9d]DT[2010-09-27]EV[3rd Quzhou-Lanke Cup tournament 3rd round]RE[W+Resign]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[pq]
;W[dp]
;B[qk]
;W[mp]
;B[po]
;W[jp]
;B[cj]
;W[cm]
;B[cf]
;W[fc])[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[7.50]
PW[Jiang Weijie]PB[Piao Wenyao]WR[5d]BR[5d]DT[2010-09-27]EV[3rd Quzhou-Lanke Cup tournament 3rd round]RE[W+Resign]
;B[pd]
;W[dp]
;B[pq]
;W[dd]
;B[qk]
;W[mq]
;B[po]
;W[jq]
;B[cn]
;W[fp]
;B[bp])[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[8.00]
PW[Tuo Jiaxi]PB[Zhou Ruiyang]WR[3d]BR[5d]DT[2010-10-27]EV[7th Changqi Cup final]RO[2]RE[B+Resign]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[pq]
;W[dp]
;B[qk]
;W[fq]
;B[jd]
;W[hc]
;B[cf]
;W[di]
;B[cc])[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[Moon Dowon]PB[Aoki Kikuyo]WR[2d]BR[8d]DT[2011-01-08]EV[9th Jeongganjang Cup]RO[1]SO[Mr. Kin]RE[W+Resign]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[pq]
;W[dp]
;B[qk]
;W[fq]
;B[fc]
;W[cf]
;B[jd]
;W[qf])[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[Kang Dongyun]PB[Won Sungjin]WR[9d]BR[9d]DT[2010-12-21]EV[12th Maxim Cup]RO[2]SO[weiqi.tom.com]RE[W+Resign]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[pq]
;W[dp]
;B[qk]
;W[fq]
;B[jd]
;W[fc]
;B[cj])[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[Lee Taehyun]PB[Choi Cheolhan]WR[3d]BR[9d]DT[2011-01-07]EV[15th Chunwon final]RO[2]SO[Mr. Kin]RE[B+Resign]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[pq]
;W[dp]
;B[qk]
;W[mq]
;B[po]
;W[jq]
;B[nc]
;W[cn]
;B[fc]
;W[df]
;B[id]
;W[di]
;B[qe])[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[Heo Yeongho]PB[Gu Li]WR[7d]BR[9d]DT[2010-12-10]EV[15th Samsung Cup Final]RO[3]SO[weiqi.tom.com]RE[B+Resign]VW[]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[pq]
;W[dp]
;B[qk]
;W[mq]
;B[po]
;W[jq]
;B[nc]
;W[cn]
;B[fc]
;W[df]
;B[id])[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[Cho U]PB[Kono Rin]WR[9d]BR[9d]DT[2011-02-05]EV[30th NEC Cup]RO[Semifinal]RE[W+9.50]
;B[pd]
;W[dp]
;B[pq]
;W[dd]
;B[qk]
;W[mp]
;B[po]
;W[jq]
;B[nc]
;W[cn]
;B[fc]
;W[df]
;B[id])[/sgf-full]


Thoughts on the last move:

Well, this is interesting, I have no idea whether this will be good for me on the left or not. If he pincers, I'm thinking of one of the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 O a . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think "b" lets him fix "a", and doesn't do a lot for me. "a" looks exciting, and I'm really tempted with it. Something as follows perhaps?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O 1 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If he fixes the cut, I'm playing that 2 point extension myself, and I feel reasonably ok with the board as a whole. I predict something like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 O . . . , . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


All fun and games :)
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

To observers:
topazg wrote:...
If he fixes the cut, I'm playing that 2 point extension myself, and I feel reasonably ok with the board as a whole. I predict something like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 O . . . , . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I've got a theoretical fuseki question here. Is the marked stone really a good place for black to develop? My gut reflex is to say that it is compromised by the wall nearby, and therefore as long as it has running room I don't need to bother with it until the temperature drops a bit. I might play 'a' in this position.
Any profound thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by Loons »

Some idle speculation @Joaz

I think black wants the left to be boring, because it is where white has an interest. So surely developing in a stable way is preferable; and that two space high base is classic in joseki where white has not counter-pincered in time. I don't understand what other sort of result black would aim for on the left. As black at 'a', I would feel uncomfortable with white's eg. three space high pincer, which might be a vital point for both players. What joseki/other result would your aim be on the left (as black)?
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

@Loons & other observers:
I'm not really looking at it from the point of view of an alternate joseki, rather I am looking at it as a variation of this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...in which we would reflexively abandon or at least discount the marked stone. ( 'A' is a DDK move, right? )

Next, what about black playing 'a' here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Another way of asking the question is: how far away does the marked stone have to be before its character changes from 'abandon for the near term' to 'reinforce immediately'?
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Post by EdLee »

@Aphelion
Aphelion wrote:Why not push through? It seems to be worth a few more points without really destroying any aji, and gives you 'a' endgame.
Good question. That's a standard bad habit.
Killing that one liberty removes some bad aji for B and creates more bad aji for W.
You never know when that extra liberty will come in handy. :mrgreen:
There are many variations and follow-ups from the joseki position; W is not concerned about (a) now.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 2 4 . . . .
$$ | . a X X 1 X . O . .
$$ | . . O O 3 O . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
It's like in the following joseki when W pushes with (a) and B blocks at (b) --
it hurts W and helps B (e.g. removes W (c) aji):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Reference joseki
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . b . . . . .
$$ | . 8 2 4 a 0 . c . .
$$ | . 6 3 O 5 . . . . ,
$$ | . 7 9 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . b 2 . . . .
$$ | . . X X a X . O . .
$$ | . . O O 1 O . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
In the game, topazg played the correct joseki move :b2:;
W would not do the (a)-(b) exchange now.
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by Magicwand »

Aphelion wrote:EdLee:

Why not push through? It seems to be worth a few more points without really destroying any aji, and gives you 'a' endgame.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X X 1 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 3 O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

yes you can play that way also.
they are both played by professionals.
ed already explained his side of the story.
now ..i have seen top professionals answer as below.
surely if is at least 1 point better for black with liberty filled.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 2 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Post by EdLee »

Again, :w18: was non-trivial for me.
If the double approach stone is on the 3rd line at :bc: instead of (x),
W has the choices of (a) connect, (b) extend, (c) 1-space pincer, (x) shoulder-hit the :bc: stone,
and possibly many others:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm18
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . X X . X . O . .
$$ | . b O O O O a . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . B . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . x . . . . . .
$$ | . . c . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
But :b11: is at (x), so I want to try the kosumi and see what happens. :)
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

ele.jpeg
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