Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:56 pm

Welcome, observers. Chew Terr and I are going to play. He is about 3K on KGS. I'm usually 1D AGA ( though temporarily 1K due to a couple of careless losses :oops:

) which should translate to about 1K on Kgs. So we're doing 2 stones handicap.
It is no books, no databases, closed comment.

@ Chew Terr: GG and GL, it's your move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 1 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Observers:

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:56 pm

Have a nice game.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:07 am

I like the 5-4. 'Luck both.

Edit:
Quick question for Joaz:

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:40 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Good morning! As I've told Joaz, I'll probably play a little slowly, as work has been busy lately, but I've been wanting to play Joaz for quite a while.

I also told him that lately, all of my games have been violent (one way or another), so I fully expect to die in a fire... but it'll be a big one! At the most recent tournament, I was playing someone around Joaz's level with three stones when Yoyoma (from L19) walked up. My opponent looked up and said in an awed voice, "This is a bloodbath!". While that sounds one-sided, it was anything but. Over the course of that game, the life and death status of 30-60 point groups changed more than twice, and trades were wholesale. I ended up losing, but had an epic-scaled game to finish the tournament with. Long story short, I'm not sure I'll try to play a fighty game, but may stumble in one one anyways, judging by how things have gone lately.

Joaz: I respect you and your play style, and hope to give you a game worth your time.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:45 am

@Loons & observers: ( some good stuff for beginners in here, BTW )

Loons wrote:Quick question for Joaz:
Just in passing, what exactly is your arcane knowledge of the 5-4 ? You're up with the modern variations so your local choice will be better? In my experience 5-4s don't normally go that complexly.
...

'Exactly' is not possible to answer without pages of diagrams and a more organized cranium. Suffice to say that the 5-4 with the subsequent 3-4 response is full of traps, primarily because the invader can be locked in, but still there is enough room for the invader himself to be undercut.
The average beginner learns the 4-4 early, because he is given it as a handicap. He learns that the 3-3 is safe as long as he gets enough eye space. When he plays even games, and invades a 4-4 with a 3-3, he never worries about his low stone being undercut, because it is almost impossible to do so.
Then, these unstated beliefs can easily be transferred to the 5-4, where they turn out not to be quite true. It looks superficially the same: a low stone living under a high stone. He may even know some 3-4 joseki, so he feels comfortable. But with the 5-4 he is a stone behind, and the 3-4 is not as safe as the 3-3.

As an example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Seems normal enough $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 1 , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Two extensions off of a crosscut \n can't be bad for black...right? $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 1 6 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now it is so tempting to play separating plays like 'a' or 'b'. Both are atari, so they are clearly sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . b O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c X 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But, 'a' turns out like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Something will die $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 3 O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and 'b' like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White steals a big corner. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 2 O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So contrary to most player's intuitions, the seemingly submissive 'c' is best. It continues like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Black has to look after two eyeless groups.\n Both tempting ataris still fail. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . b O X X 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 5 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now the hane seems natural:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Alas, black is tricked again $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O 5 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X X 6 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Anyway, that is just a sample of some of the non-intuitive problems that can arise. FWIW, I won't try this, primarily because it is the best know trap, and he has probably seen it. Also, there are variations that require the ladder heading northwest to be favorable for white, and black just played there.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:13 am

I'm going to adopt a convention that Topazg suggested many months back: Normal comments will be in normal black text; comments to beginners will be in green; if I count, that will be in blue. ( Topazg suggested red for something, but I have forgotten )

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:01 pm

Good luck to both players.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:20 pm

Joaz Banbeck wrote:I'm going to adopt a convention that Topazg suggested many months back: Normal comments will be in normal black text; comments to beginners will be in green; if I count, that will be in blue. ( Topazg suggested red for something, but I have forgotten )

I had normal for continuations, variations, alternatives, and red for overall strategic thoughts

I may do that again at some point, I wasn't sure if it was a positive or a negative thing before!

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:22 pm

topazg wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:I'm going to adopt a convention that Topazg suggested many months back: Normal comments will be in normal black text; comments to beginners will be in green; if I count, that will be in blue. ( Topazg suggested red for something, but I have forgotten )

I had normal for continuations, variations, alternatives, and red for overall strategic thoughts

I may do that again at some point, I wasn't sure if it was a positive or a negative thing before!

I liked it in general, especially the green. Is it bad that I tended to be most interested in the green comments? =D It did look like a lot of work, though, and it may require a more organized mind than I have. =D

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:42 pm

Not for players until the bottom right is firmly settled.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 1 , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I ALWAYS fall for this stupid thing (the real joseki, not joaz's trick). For those who don't know the joseki, what ends up happening most of the time is black dies somewhere because of 3.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:07 pm

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:08 pm

I would already consider being paranoid, if more than two moves had been played. =D

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:30 pm

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:34 pm

Not for players (same as last post)

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:49 pm

Life In 19x19

Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr

Re: Malkovich 104 - Joaz vs Chew Terr