103. EdLee vs topazg

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:48 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm60 Prisoners $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

One idea is B can turn the lower right into solid territory with one move,
say :b1:

(or (a) or (b), not sure what is pro shape);
whereas W needs probably 3 moves to do the same at the bottom--
(c) plus 2 moves around (d):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . a b . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . d . . . . . . . c . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Another idea: although the :b2:

clamp looks a bit crude, after :b4:

it doesn't look very promising for W:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$----------------- $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . X . . X O . | $$. . O X X O . . | $$. . . X O . O . | $$. . . . O O . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . O X . . | $$. . . . . X . . | $$. . . . , . . . | $$. . . . . X . . | $$. . . . 3 1 4 . | $$. . . . . 2 . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . X . . . | $$. O . . , . . . | $$. . . . X . . . | $$. . . . . . . . |[/go]

For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$----------------- $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . X . . X O . | $$. . O X X O . . | $$. . . X O . O . | $$. . . . O O . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . O X . . | $$. . . . . X 7 . | $$. . . . 5 3 . . | $$. . . 6 4 X 1 . | $$. . . . O O X . | $$. . . . . X 2 . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . X . . . | $$. O . . , . . . | $$. . . . X . . . | $$. . . . . . . . |[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:24 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm60 Prisoners $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

cdybeijing · Post by **cdybeijing** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:31 am

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:04 am

cdybeijing wrote:
Is white 60 a common reduction tactic?

yes. but i would have done it differently
see below..
i think white wanted sente. my proposal is most likely gote.
i feel that black is behind. if black feels he is behind and jump in bottom left corner... he is fall behind even more.
also..i feel 'a' is very very big..because of followup move at 'b'
if white can grab sente and play 'a' he will be comfortably ahead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm60 Prisoners $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O O O O b . . , . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O a . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

gaius · Post by **gaius** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:03 am

Hmmm... wouldn't this be more active? I don't see a really convincing answer for white, for example I think the sequence below at least gives black some attacking hopes again:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm60 Prisoners $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:48 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm60 Prisoners $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

So, my current feeling is that my winning chances are not good, perhaps 30% or so right now. Ed's played a really great game, and as far as I can feel has made no obvious blunders. He's certainly played a game that defies an AGA 4k rating IMHO.

That said, I'm obvious not giving up just yet. One of the reasons I played to the top like I did was to cut. Unfortunately, the cut is messy, and I don't think it actually works:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm60 Prisoners $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X 3 O 7 . X . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O O O O 2 4 5 , . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . 6 9 . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

This looks relatively promising, albeit complicated, but I do need to watch out for my top group too. Unfortunately, I think White can evade:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm60 Prisoners $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X 5 O . . X . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O O O O 2 3 . 7 . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . 4 6 . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Now I think I have a seriously weak group to worry about. I can pull back and let White block, and I do think that's better, but it feels hard to pull off a serious coup here to me. However, look at the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm60 Prisoners $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X 4 O . . X . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O O O O 2 3 . 9 . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . O . . . 0 5 6 7 . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . O b b . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O a . O X b . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

This is so close to working, that I have a lot of aji to play with. A move at "a" or "b" could simply make this work. In fact, I'm convinced of it enough that I want to play one the second I get sente again, before looking at the lower left. Assuming White fixes his cut if I do play this way, I need a follow up. So, either I play at "a", take my immediate profit in sente, and then play in the lower left, and count later, or I play at "b", and aim to do some serious damage in the center and leave "a" for later. My gut feeling is "a", as it looks like sente profit, and that's a "good thing" right now. However, it may not be enough. It could be that cutting directly is still best :S

Epic game for me here!

EDIT: That's it, if I get sente, I'm cutting. Let's start some fires.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:00 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm62 Prisoners $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:31 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm62 Prisoners $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:18 am

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:03 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm64 Prisoners $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:47 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm64 Prisoners $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . 2 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:16 am

If I take two stones...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm64 Prisoners $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . O . . B . . B . . X O . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . 2 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

And move them here...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm64 Prisoners $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . O . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . O X X . B . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O B O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . 2 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

...it is a much more interesting game. Maybe not better overall, but more suited to blazes of glory.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:37 pm

cdybeijing · Post by **cdybeijing** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:09 pm

You have a very nice set of stones.

I've seen you contributing to some of the equipment threads, so I knew to have high expectations.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:32 pm

cdybeijing, thank you. Yes, the Kuroki shell stones are superb.

Life In 19x19

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