Positional judgement #2

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lorill
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Positional judgement #2

Post by lorill »

Hi,

here's another game where my opponent and myself disagreed :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position at move 36
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Even game, 6.5 komi, and black to play.

Would you rather take black or white ? Why ?
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Jordus
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Re: Positional judgement #2

Post by Jordus »

I think it kind of depends on if you are an influence oriented player or a territorially oriented player... Black seems to have the lead territorial wise, but white has a powerful influence on the side which looking at it from that perspective makes white seem a little bit ahead possibly...

Anyways, I can see how two players with different styles would disagree about the position here...
I'm thinking...
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Re: Positional judgement #2

Post by Jordus »

Personally I favor blacks position better at this point considering it is their turn right now... (some examples of my thoughts... possibly clouded by lack of sleep lol)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position at move 36
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . a 3 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Huge position for black I think... (a is optional for placement of :b3:)


If white pincers instead...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position at move 36
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . a d . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
now black is attacking the corner and the white running group without much push on his groups at all... (a,b, c, and d are possible options for :b5:)
I'm thinking...
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

What if B starts attacking with :b1: ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . d . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . W X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . c . 1 . . W X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . W , W X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:wc: looks very heavy, and as it runs out with (a), etc.,
B can profit at (b) direction; or, if W pushes B toward (c) direction, then B can greatly reduce (d).
Feels like B is in control at the moment.
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entropi
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Re:

Post by entropi »

EdLee wrote:What if B starts attacking with :b1: ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . d . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . W X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . c . 1 . . W X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . W , W X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:wc: looks very heavy, and as it runs out with (a), etc.,
B can profit at (b) direction; or, if W pushes B toward (c) direction, then B can greatly reduce (d).
Feels like B is in control at the moment.
This move was also my immediate feeling (which is the proof that it cannot be correct :) ). But I am not sure who will gain more if white pushes black along c direction. Since blacks keima can be cut, black might need to take care of his newly created baseless group, while white can choose between solidifying territory at top, and gaining power towards the bottom.

Therefore, if the idea is separating the marked stones, why not playing the solid kosumi (instead of keima)?
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Post by EdLee »

entropi wrote:Since blacks keima can be cut, black might need to take care of his newly created baseless group,
Yes, but B's new group is much lighter than W's heavy group.
entropi wrote:Therefore, if the idea is separating the marked stones, why not playing the solid kosumi (instead of keima)?
Yes, the exact point requires more reading; the keima was just my first feeling. :)
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Re:

Post by Magicwand »

EdLee wrote:What if B starts attacking with :b1: ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . d . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . W X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . c . 1 . . W X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . W , W X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:wc: looks very heavy, and as it runs out with (a), etc.,
B can profit at (b) direction; or, if W pushes B toward (c) direction, then B can greatly reduce (d).
Feels like B is in control at the moment.
my feeling exactly.
having weakness as such is never good..and sente? wow...every professionals will choose black.
i am sure of it 100%
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Re: Positional judgement #2

Post by Aphelion »

Magicwand:

I can see your point, those marked white stones are very uncomfortable. However, what do you think if it is White's sente?
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Re: Positional judgement #2

Post by Harleqin »

Aphelion wrote:Magicwand:

I can see your point, those marked white stones are very uncomfortable. However, what do you think if it is White's sente?
If it is White's sente, he has already lost a part of his handicap advantage.

I think that severe mistakes have been committed by both sides. It is certainly very painful for Black (and satisfying for White) to be pressed on the second line. However, that was likely not even necessary, as it would have been more important for Black to get out with his upper group. On the other hand, White has produced quite a heavy group. I think that he should treat it as kikashi anyway and sacrifice it at the first opportunity. Therefore, the proposed attack at O11 seems premature to me---White should ignore it for now.
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.
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Re: Positional judgement #2

Post by lorill »

Well, it looks like my judgement was wrong once more, I favored white here. :oops:
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Re: Positional judgement #2

Post by Kirby »

I think if the white stones people mentioned were not under the possibility of being attacked, white has better prospects. In particular, the top seems pretty good for white.

So if that group was connected, I might favor white.

For example, if we switch two stones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position at move 36
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . B . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . W . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't feel so bad about white.
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Re: Positional judgement #2

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Given that it's black's turn, I think black is ahead. If it were white's turn I would call it about even.
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Re: Positional judgement #2

Post by Bill Spight »

I prefer White.

Black has lost ground on the right side by crawling along the second line. Also Black has made an empty triangle and allowed a ponnuki.

As against that, the White wall in the top right is inefficient.

I think that the balance favors White.

Also, the White group on the right is not heavy. The four stones on the third line have done their job, and are expendable. However, it is hard to sacrifice them without sacrificing the stone on the fifth line, so handling the group is tricky.
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Re: Positional judgement #2

Post by topazg »

I consider it to be pretty even, but sente to take the bottom middle hoshi (or thereabouts) seems to have a huge swing value right now.
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Re: Positional judgement #2

Post by Aphelion »

Bill, how would you respond to the attack Ed posted?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . W X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . W X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . W , W X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Edit: Hurray for sente!
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