=== Discussion for black 10 ===
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm6 Black 10
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$$ | . . . . c 4 i . 1 . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . a . . . , i . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . h . . b . . 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . e d . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
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[JoazBanbeck] I like 'a'
[topazg] 'a' looks interesting, but I'm voting for 'b'. If White wants to make lots of weak groups, I think we should let him. At some stage, things are going to start dying, and we're a step ahead. It's hard for him to handle that latest stone anyway. A double approach should give us the top, jumping in the corner should give us the top. Running out will give us the left.
[daniel the smith] If we're thinking about ''b'', maybe we should think about playing ''c'' first. Can't decide if I like that or not. Hmm, ''a'' might be good but I have to do more reading...
[Kirby] I would probably play 'd' if I were playing the game myself. Incidentally, though, 'a' and 'b' were the other two moves that came to mind before I came to the SL page to write about this move. I think that 'a' feels right, but I'm not sure what to do after white responds with a hane from the right side. I like 'b' alright, but it feels a bit passive. The bad part about 'd' is that black can then attack our stone, of course. I suppose 'b' feels the safest of the options, even though I would very likely play 'd' in a game by myself. Regarding 'c', I am hesitant to play it followed by b, because then white can press down against the top left (at D15, for example).
[daniel the smith] Now that I see it, I think ''d'' is going to get my vote. I still need to read ''a'' some more, though. ''d'' has a nice feel. White can't swallow that black stone at the top in one move, and ''d'' seems like it is goading him into trying. If we play it, I think next white might cap our single stone at ''b''. I think we should be able to handle that fine, but some reading is required there too...
[topazg] I don't particularly like 'c' because it's going to help White out if we then play 'd'. I would still choose 'b', and if White double approaches we can then use 'a' and we have strength to fight. However, I also quite like 'd', and would be happy with that provided we don't kick first. 'e' feels like a less severe version of 'd', and we are supposed to be attacking right now? 'b' and 'd' both have my vote, and 'a' can have half a vote
-- Joaz and Dusk Eagle posted some variations below at this point --
[daniel the smith] I'm leaning towards ''b''. ''a'' seems to start touching too soon. All the variations posted by Duskeagle/Joaz look good for black, but they all assume the crosscut, and I don't think white will allow that. White could tenuki or hop into the corner in a number of ways, leaving that stone as aji; I think that's more Magicwand's style. ''d'' is good, but I think the side stone is weaker than the corner, so it should be helped directly with ''b''. I'll give two votes to ''b'' and one to ''d''. (BTW, I dislike ''e''-- it feels too soft. If we want to defend, we should to do so in such a way as to make white's life as difficult as possible.)
[topazg] The more I look at it, the more I think if Black plays 'a', White will play 'b', and leave the top right 3-3 for later to use the aji of that approach stone. Anything that lets him fix that group that we've got running would cause me to cry a little.
[Kirby] It's a good way of wording it to call his two stones the "group that we've got running". Of course, 'd' is OK locally, but the difference between white attacking black and black attacking white seems pretty big. If we play 'd', we've defended the corner while putting a bit of pressure on white - but our stone is easily attacked. If we jump out at 'b', we are very safe on the top, and put pressure on the "group that we've got running", so I think that I like it better. As topazg mentioned before, a double approach is not hard to deal with, and the balance of power between groups seems more sensitive at the top right now. I'll put forward two votes for 'b' and one vote for 'd'. I like this voting scheme, by the way.
[daniel the smith] Sounds like three of us somewhat favor ''b''. If we play ''b'' and white jumps to ''f'', what do we think about that? Next black ''g'' and white ''h''? Good for us or no?
[Dusk Eagle] If we play 'a' and white follows up with 'b', we can easily play c or i. We'll have a very strong corner group, and white will have nothing. I'm sticking by 'a'.
If we do end up playing ''b'', and white plays ''f'', I think ''g'' is pretty forced. Then white will play ''h'', we'll probably ''d'', and then white will cap our two stones in the middle. I'm not big on that, but it seems playable.
[topazg] Yeah, I agree, I'm not big on that either. At least we have points on the left and the ability to swallow up a huge right side. I think if we play "a", I'm worried about our top right corner after we play "c" (not keen on "i", as there's still so much 3-3 aji).
So votes - do we say 2 for first choice, 1 for second, and half for third or something?
'a' = 2 from Joaz, 2 from Dusk, 0.5 from me = 4.5%%%
'b' = 2 from Daniel, 2 from Me, 2 from Kirby = 6%%%
'c' = 0%%%
'd' = 1 from Daniel, 1 from Me, 1 from Kirby = 3%%%
'e' = 0
Are we ready to play 'b', or should we discuss the position after Dusk's sequence (which, I agree, seems very likely?) - edit: I've added the diagram to the bottom...
[Kirby] I'm not so sure that Magicwand will go for our 'b', 'f', 'g', 'h' sequence, because he is not usually one to throw away a stone, and the stone on the right seems pretty easy to capture after the action stops on top (i.e. he probably won't throw away Q13). So I don't think we have to worry too much about this.
[topazg] Well, you're undeniably the expert on magicwand, so I'm a bit more confident in the 'b' line then
[Kirby] Well, it's also possible that I am an expert on being wrong about Magicwand. Perhaps the sequence isn't out of the realm of possibility, but I guess I just want to point out that we do get the benefit of hurting his Q13 stone if we ever get sente to do so.
[Kirby] I was thinking about the method of selecting a move a bit, and I think that the current method might be a bit unfair to Joaz and Dusk since they have only voted once. It might be natural to allow everyone a value of "1" for selecting a move. This allows for an infinite number of weighted move selections (eg. 1/2 for a, 1/4 for b, 1/8 for c, etc.), and also allows for an easy way to represent your vote as a percentage of confidence. That is, if I am unsure between two moves, I can say something like, "I am 85% sure that 'a' is the best move, and about 15% sure that 'b' is the best move". Using this methodology, we have the following set of votes:
'a' = 1 from Joaz, 1 from Dusk, 1/7 from topazg = 15/7 = about 2.14%%%
'b' = 2/3 from Daniel, 4/7 from topazg, 2/3 from Kirby = 40/21 = about 1.9%%%
'c' = 0%%%
'd' = 1/3 from Daniel, 2/7 from topazg, 1/3 from Kirby = 20/21 = about 0.95%%%
'e' = 0
(Note: I have chosen the numbers based on the relation to one another using the previous weights. For example, I previously voted 2 and 1. Hence, I favored 'b' twice as much as 'd'. That's why I expressed the vote as 2/3 and 1/3 here. The same goes for the other numbers.)
This leads to a different 'final result' from what we have above (i.e. we would select 'a' instead of 'b' at the moment), but using the other format, Joaz or Dusk have only 4/7 of the voting say that topazg has, and 2/3 of what Daniel and I have. It seems to make sense to me if we each have one vote, which we can split up in whichever manner that we'd like. This means that someone that is "sure" of a particular move will contribute more weight toward that move than if they are wishy-washy between two different moves.
Just an idea, of course, and if we go with this idea, people might want to change their votes. What do you guys think?
[Dusk Eagle] Well, if we don't go with ''a'', I support ''b'' as the next best choice. I think Kirby's method of voting is probably best for future moves, but it's best not to change it on this move, as topazg and Daniel did not allocate their votes with that system in mind.
So anyway, I am still a firm supporter of ''a'', but since it seems unlikely that we'll play that way at this point, I'm fine with going ahead with ''b''.
[daniel the smith] I like Kirby's voting method. I like ''b'' in theory, but I'm not in love with the likely resulting position (in the diagram below). ''a'' is growing on me. I'm having a hard time choosing between ''a'', ''b'', and ''d''. I'll say 2/3 to ''b'', and 1/6 each to ''a'' and ''d''. If those that like ''a'' are super confident about it, I'm fine if that's the move we play.
> I like Kirby's also. I think that a reasoned concensus is best, but if we can't come to an agreement, and have to resort to brute democracy, Kirby's is simplest.
[Kirby] I'm also starting to like 'a', a bit. The good thing here is, I think that either way we go, we are playing a pretty good move.
[topazg] I cannot _wait_ to see people's responses to all of this conversation
Ok, I like the method too, I'm going 3/6 on 'b', 2/6 on 'a' and 1/6 on 'd' now. People can go with 'b', update the voting scores and go with the highest, or whatever suits best really.
[AndyPierce] I don't know how the Gang Malkovich works, but how about ...NO KIBITZING PLEASE... sorry Andy, but this is a private group game and we can't accept outside help. [topazg] - you are welcome to follow the game though, and even post your thoughts in "hide" tags, [on L19 |
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3464].
[JoazBanbeck] I'm still 100% in favor of 'a'.
* I think that the discussion may be getting too local. Let's think whole-board for a minute. Note that in virtually all variations, black ends up with a wall facing south, with D4 sitting there as a perfect extension.
* Also, as a matter of style, recall how MW has won the majority of his games: he gets groups running toward the center, and eventually kills something. He rarely takes a corner and lets the opponent have the outside wall early in the game. Not only is 'a' good on a large scale, it will make MW play a style that is opposite of what he likes to play. Move 'b', on the other hand, is exactly the kind of game that he likes.
[topazg] I disagree, I think it's precisely global considerations that we've just been looking it. In contrast, all the variations on 'a' have been very clearly local so far. You are still assuming White will even respond to 'a' locally, and I don't think he will. I also disagree with you on MW's style. As someone that has had 2 very close even games against him, the one thing MW likes is to develop thickness or some form of power base to work his attacking magic from. The reason I don't want MW to get 'b' is it gives him precisely that. Look at his last game against kirby. Connecting his stones and getting some form of influence gave him his entire game strategy. Look at his comments in the last game against me - he rued losing the ability to make the thick position at the bottom. I'm not saying 'a' is definitely worse than 'b' at all, but I personally feel that your reasoning has persuaded me slightly more towards 'b' than 'a'.
[Kirby] Well, it seems there is some disagreement. Shall we vote, again, or is there more to discuss? If we do vote, I'll keep my numbers the same as stated previously. If there's more to discuss, I might change my mind.
[Dusk Eagle] I'm going to keep my vote on ''a''. Also, I might not be on the rest of the day, so I can't really discuss anything further.
[topazg] Looks like 'a' wins to me, unless anyone else wants to change their scores
'a' = 1 from Joaz, 1 from Dusk, 3/10 from topazg = 2.3%%%
'b' = 2/3 from Daniel, 3/5 from topazg, 2/3 from Kirby = 40/21 = about 1.93%%%
'c' = 0%%%
'd' = 1/3 from Daniel, 1/10 from topazg, 1/3 from Kirby = 20/21 = about 0.77%%%
'e' = 0
[daniel the smith] Looks like ''a'' wins to me. Making post now.
Additional diagrams:
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
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$$ | . . . . . O 3 . B . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . 1 2 . . , . . . X . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
[JoazBanbeck] The marked stones on the left are in the perfect position to crosscut.
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
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$$ | . . . . . . 5 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 3 4 B . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . 1 2 7 . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . O . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
[JoazBanbeck] It goes badly for white if he tries to fight his way out.
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[Dusk Eagle] I originally supported a move around 'e', thinking that if Magicwand tried to swallow the pincer stone, we could always pincer his lone stone on the right. But now I support 'a', because the variation below looks cool. (Note: I typed this up before Joaz had posted the crosscut variation as well).
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
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$$ | . . . . . O 3 . B . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 2 . . , . . . X . X . . . |
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Our BC stone makes this variation interesting.
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4
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$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 6 3 5 O X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 X 1 X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 4 2 . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14
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$$ | . 1 O . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O X 3 X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 O X O X O 4 . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X 6 . . . . O . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
White might not play W16, but we can respond with B17 and such if he does.
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
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$$ | . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . 2 O X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O 4 . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . O . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
This is terrible for white.
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm6 Black 10
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$$ | . . . . . 4 . . 1 . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . a . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . 5 . . 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . c 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 0 . . 6 . b . W . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[topazg] Is this ok? I think White's pretty thin for this, but it's a hairy fight. Can we play 12 at 'a' instead of jumping out again? Is that better to let White get to play on the right? I'm slightly in favour of it, because even if White plays "b" we can play "c" and make a bit of a mess of White's shape.
[Kirby] I think it's OK, because if we get 12 in with the shown diagram, white's marked stone is hurt.
[JoazBanbeck] This is exactly the type of game that MW wants.
[daniel the smith] I actually find this somewhat persuasive.
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Joaz Banbeck
