107: Emerus(2k) vs Abydos1(3k)

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Loons
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Re: 107: Emerus(2k) vs Abydos1(3k)

Post by Loons »

Oops, rather Go was black and won +R (at 2.5 komi). Maybe go isn't the game for people with sieve-like memories. My invasion in the other thread does work, at least (insofaras it is likely black is making an overplay if it is eventually played for).
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Abydos1
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Re: 107: Emerus(2k) vs Abydos1(3k)

Post by Abydos1 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Defend the cut and take the corner.

If white plays :w2: I connect and white wants to play around both a and b; I can hope for at least one of them or sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . b . . . O 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 2 . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O a . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
emerus
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Re: 107: Emerus(2k) vs Abydos1(3k)

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 2 . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Abydos1
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Re: 107: Emerus(2k) vs Abydos1(3k)

Post by Abydos1 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 107: Emerus(2k) vs Abydos1(3k)

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
mw42
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Re: 107: Emerus(2k) vs Abydos1(3k)

Post by mw42 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O Y . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . Q . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think :bt: is wrong. It wants to live in the corner, but there is no reason to right now. If white slides in at (a) then later black could play (b) to share the corner, but it is too small right now. I believe B :wt: would be the correct move in this shape, but I don't like black's choice to begin with. Typically so early in the game the following sequence would be more advantageous to black
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now black has sente to play in another corner. I think :w3: (white's double approach) is also a mistake, but perhaps it is just a matter of style.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . X X d . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b Q Q a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Back to the current position, I think :w14: is overplay. The idea perhaps is to punish black for playing to live in the corner, but with the cuts at (a) and (b) black can wedge at (c) to get out. Also, perhaps black can cut at (a) directly forcing black to crawl on the second line to live (the aji at (d) should ensure black lives in the corner if he gets surrounded) then cut at (b) to attack the :wt: group. If I were white, I would have protected the cut at (a) with (e) looking forward to surrounding with :w14:.
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Re: 107: Emerus(2k) vs Abydos1(3k)

Post by Loons »

My feeling is that black should just play R13. White will force at R12 and then fix his cuts (eg O12), black takes the next corner. Black lived with points in sente, but white's thickness is better.

Because white will play a thick cut-fixing move in gote, this raises the question of whether black should play eg. P13 before fixing his corner somehow, but that becomes a little complicated.
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Re: 107: Emerus(2k) vs Abydos1(3k)

Post by mw42 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 White to move
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O O 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is just Loons suggestion with a next move for black. I like black on this board. I don't think white's thickness here is better at all.
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Re: 107: Emerus(2k) vs Abydos1(3k)

Post by Shaddy »

mw42 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 White to move
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O O 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is just Loons suggestion with a next move for black. I like black on this board. I don't think white's thickness here is better at all.


If we compare this with the 19-point trick play, black's territory is about the same and white has an extra cut or so. I think the result is about even, but if I were told someone was ahead I'd bet it was white.
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Re: 107: Emerus(2k) vs Abydos1(3k)

Post by emerus »

This variation is pretty one-way, I think. I left two cutting points(but neither are very heavy for white) and black will have the opportunity to cut at both. Hopefully there isn't anything more crazy with the wedge at 'a'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . X O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O O 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is the move that I first played in this shape but it isn't good. White plays on both sides and with thin positions. Maybe if d16 were white's position then this would be playable.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 107: Emerus(2k) vs Abydos1(3k)

Post by Abydos1 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 5 , . . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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This took some thought, my initial instinct was to cut immediately at either a or b but with b white can sacrifice the two stones in sente and while cutting these two groups with a seems big they have plenty of space, there are bigger points on the board, and a doesn't seem to be going anywhere (most likely just letting white secure both sides). Thus, I decided to play on the top reducing the influence from white's wall and making the cut at a more painful for the top group.
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[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
emerus
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Re: 107: Emerus(2k) vs Abydos1(3k)

Post by emerus »

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[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
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I'm not much of a life and death guy so I think it's about 50/50 that this is sente.

I actually couldnt decide which move is best for taking an open corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A feels most normal, but should I not try to use my influence more by setting up a pressing play at B or C? I dunno man, I dunno.


woops wrong move
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Re: 107: Emerus(2k) vs Abydos1(3k)

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[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger if you block.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . 9 . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 107: Emerus(2k) vs Abydos1(3k)

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 107: Emerus(2k) vs Abydos1(3k)

Post by Abydos1 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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