Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five

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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm23 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



=== Discussion for black 24 ===

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm23 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . d O O X O . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c X O i . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . e b . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


[daniel the smith] ''a'' is what leaps out at me.

[Dusk Eagle] ''a''.

[JoazBanbeck] It leapt out at me too. Fortunately, I had the presence of mind to duck. :) If 'a' is really needed, let us play 'b' first. He connects, then we play 'a'.

[daniel the smith] Is that aji keshi? You don't think we'll ever want to cut at ''i''? I'm thinking about it...

[Kirby] I haven't thought it through much, but I wonder if 'c' is OK...

[daniel the smith] Hmm... if black ''c'', white will ''d'' (white ''a'' looks awful for white)-- looks better for white to me. So what about black ''d'' directly? Then I guess white ''c'' and that doesn't look good for black at all. I'm still thinking ''a'' is best.

[Kirby] Yeah, maybe 'c' is too aggressive. When I do try to read it out, it doesn't look great for us.

[topazg] 0.7 for 'd', 0.3 for 'a'.

[Kirby] What's the sequence you have in mind if white plays 'c' in response to 'd', [topazg]?

[topazg] I'd then connect at 'a'. If we are going to do it anyway, I'd rather White doesn't get 'd'. It's not like the ladder works for White, so he has to allow us to capture his last stone. Either that, or he allows us to squeeze, which looks really bad for White.

[daniel the smith] Added a couple more diagrams. I'm 1.0 for ''a'' still.

[Kirby] I am starting to think that our last move was a mistake, too. I don't know how to fix it easily. I will vote 0.5 for 'a', 0.1 for 'b', 0.1 for 'c', 0.1 for 'd', and 0.1 for 'e'.

[Kirby] I'm still not sure about the best way to play, but one thing to consider is that, if we play 'a', Magicwand will probably fix. We could try to take the opportunity to cut our local losses and proceed to attacking the two top white stones, like we wanted to awhile back. The bad part of this is that it probably ensures that our previous move was a bad one (unless we can work something up later).

[daniel the smith] I still think ''a'', he fixes, we cut at ''i'' is best.

[Kirby] I'll switch to 1.0 for 'a'. I'm not sure about the followup, yet, because it'll depend on what he does.

[topazg] Let's go with 'a' then, it definitely looks like the most reasonable move, although I'm 90% sure that makes our last move a mistake. We're going to end up with a single weak Black group floating around White's groups (one of which will be completely settled with points, so it's not even 1 weak group against 2), and we'll have lost an unpleasant amount of our corner investment. I really don't like the cut at 'i' now, as White can sacrifice those two stones quite easily. It's like 5-8 points or something, probably in gote, for us to cut there now.

[JoazBanbeck] I realize that Daniel is probably right: 'b' is aji-keshi. I could settle for 'a'.

----

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Diagram 24A
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . 5 1 O O X O . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 X O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


[daniel the smith] Next move for black? Looks pretty bad to me...

[topazg]I've added the continuation I was expecting. I half want to play at :w4: right now, but I think we've got to look after the corner, or what we were doing for the last 5 or 6 moves?

%%%%

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Diagram 24B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


[daniel the smith] I'm pretty sure I greatly prefer this; white is not nearly as thick, we have sente (white has to do something to control that cutting stone), and the cutting stone will still have large amounts of aji.

%%%%

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Diagram 24C
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O O X O . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O 2 . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . n 1 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


[daniel the smith] Here we still have sente, but white is much thicker and I'm not sure that B1 is worth that. If we aren't careful it might even become a target.

[topazg] As long as we extend at 'n' instead of the atari, I'm happy with this - 'h' last move feels like a mistake now though, unless we can start some pretty serious attacks going. White can settle in a move on the left, so we must split asap.
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Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm23 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O O X O . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five

Post by Dusk Eagle »

@Observers:
When this started, I thought we would be stronger as a group then individually. I don't believe that anymore. We all have different ideas, and we still are limited by our position analysis skills when voting on moves. If we had someone ~Magicwand's level who couldn't suggest moves but could take the best move he saw us propose, then we probably could be stronger than Magicwand. As it is, I'm beginning to wonder whether us as a group is stronger or weaker than a normal 1d.

Maybe I'm just getting pessimistic too quickly. I just don't like how the corner looks right now.
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Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five

Post by Kirby »

@Observers:
Well, other teammates are making me curious by using hide tags, so I thought I'd do it, too.
be immersed
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Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five

Post by Jedo »

to all???
Regardless of who ends up winning this game, the black dissatisfaction with the past few moves has led me to think about one of the big issues that I think affects any kind of team game: accountability.

Speaking from my own experience with the Teamovitch game as well my observations of other variations on L19, I feel that any time there is a team format, individual members will suggest and even strongly argue for moves that they themselves would never play in a normal 1v1. I think the issue here is the relatviely low accountability of the team format; in a 1v1 game you know that you will have to singlehandedly follow through on any move you play, since you are 100% accountable. In the team format though you no longer have this responsibility, you are only partially accountable for whatever move you suggest, and will not have to bear the full brunt of following it up.

This begins to get into psychology, but I find it interesting how team games can not only lead to inconsistent play due to differing styles of play, but to daring/strange moves that players would perhaps not play themselves in a normal game.
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Post by EdLee »

In light of some of the recent comments... :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasparov_versus_the_World
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Post by EdLee »

Jedo,
Jedo wrote:This begins to get into psychology, but I find it interesting how team games can not only lead to inconsistent play
due to differing styles of play, but to daring/strange moves that players would perhaps not play themselves in a normal game.
Yes, the psychology and team dynamics are very interesting, maybe even more fascinating than the Go itself.
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Re:

Post by cdybeijing »

EdLee wrote:In light of some of the recent comments... :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasparov_versus_the_World


I didn't read the article, but from what I remember of that game, there was a team of grandmasters suggesting candidate moves, and then the public at large was allowed to vote on one of three candidates.
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Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five

Post by Dusk Eagle »

I believe there were Grandmasters suggesting moves, but the public was allowed to vote on anything.
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Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five

Post by emerus »

the gang:

To me, your game seems stronger than you realize. The team format appears to have a strong psychological effect. Do you expect to use the same system of voting for the entire game?


magicwand:

The game has barely begun but how do you feel about it? Do you think it will only be a matter of time before the gang's game becomes too fragmented and how would you feel about your chances if the game went into endgame tied? Can one strong dan's endgame compete with five dans?
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Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five

Post by Magicwand »

to emerus:
i feel that i already made up one stone handycap from their last mistake.
i seen their endgame and they are strong at it. but i think i still have upper hand in endgame.
i dont plan to drag this game to the end. i will try to win in the middle so they dont have any chance.
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Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five

Post by daniel_the_smith »

@emerus + gang
I think what we're doing is working ok so far. I think my cut a few moves ago might not have been best, but I'm still undecided about that. I think perhaps we would be better off if we discussed with more diagrams and fewer words... :) But the voting system that evolved is cool.
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Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five

Post by hyperpape »

to observers, gang:
I'm just waiting until the voting advances far enough that you encounter Arrow's theorem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow' ... ty_theorem
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Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

To fellow gang members:
It is one day before the end of the quarter, and I've got lots of government paperwork to deal with. So I'll be gone from the forums for a few days. Please go ahead and play without me.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five

Post by Magicwand »

does this mean topazg will not play here also?
what solution do we have?
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