- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm25 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O O X O . f . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b X W . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . j . a . . . . . . . g . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d k . . . . . . . . . . . h . . |
$$ | . . i , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[topazg] If he connects, I propose 'a'.
[daniel the smith] I think he will play ''b'' (or ''a''). If he connects, I'm thinking ''c'' may be our best move. He will still have to worry about aji and he won't have much use for the wall he just got.
[daniel the smith] (later) He does connect. I don't want to play ''a'', I think that will end up with us having a floating heavy group. In MW's own words, "one stone is aji." I say leave it and play ''c''. Or possibly cut and take those two stones, giving us a really thick group to stare at those two white stones with. But ''c'' stands out to me as I think it's the point he'll want in a move or two when his wall gets a little thicker. It makes that whole side of the board uninteresting, so it's not that useful for white to have something thick facing it.
[Kirby] I agree with the "one stone is aji" idea here. I like 'c' alright. I also kind of feel like playing something that he will more likely respond to, such as 'd' next. After that, if he responds, we can try to grab 'e' after that. Maybe 'd' is too greedy, though...
[topazg] Why is it we played 'h' two moves ago again - what were we aiming for? As it stands, he can simply capture it in a ladder, and he's taken our corner away. I can't understand our game plan here. My goal of playing 'a' is it encourages White to respond on the left edge, giving is 'f', 'g' or 'h' to maintain an attack. If we don't think he'll treat it as sente, then 'f', 'g' or 'h' now seems prudent. Tenuki from all of this top area feels split-personality to me, based on our last few moves.
[daniel the smith] My original goal with ''h'' was (I think) to deal with the area without losing sente, leaving aji for MW to worry about if possible. I think that we accomplished that. White needs to lose sente yet again to completely control that stone. That said, ''a'' might be ok too, as long as we don't get attached to those stones-- but I think we will. Kirby's idea is interesting, but I'd play ''i'' if I was going to do that, I think.
[topazg] How do you feel about the result compared to diagrams 22A through to 22E?
[Kirby] I like daniel's 'i' better than 'd'. @topazg: I think we've lost some.
[daniel the smith] I could get behind ''i''. I guess I also think that extending straight down back then would have been a little better.
[Dusk Eagle] I just can't vote for anything that doesn't involve saving the cutting stone. That was the whole purpose of cutting in the first place. Cutting stones are rather critical, as we all know, and I think we will be committing a *huge* mistake to not save it in some way. I vote ''a''.
[Kirby] It seems to me that white can play in a simple way after 'a' - like at C13, for example. What do we do, then?
[Dusk Eagle] Jump to E11. Ultimately, I think Magicwand has to look out for the WC cutting stone, and then perhaps we can get a splitting attack on the top.
[Kirby] That might be OK. I am kind of confused about the best play, to be honest.
[Dusk Eagle] I feel the same way. I don't like ''a'', but I dislike leaving it even more. I don't know what's best.
[topazg] After 'a', I vote for the splitting attack straight away, either with 'f' or the point below it.
[JoazBanbeck] Locally, 'a' feels right. With a whole-board view, 'f' feels right.
Does anybody have a distinct game plan here, or are we playing a drunkard's walk? If you have one, please propose it.
[Kirby] I vote 1.0 for drunkard's walk... Just kidding. I would be OK with 'i' followed by 'e' if he responds, as mentioned above. I'm also OK with black 'a', white 'j', black 'k', too.
[daniel the smith] You guys have convinced me that ''a'' is not as bad as I thought it was. But now I just feel ambivalent towards everything. I guess if I had to vote now, it'd be .6 ''i'', .4 ''a''. I added some possible plans below. I still think ''a'' is going to give us a group we'll have to care for throughout the rest of the game, which I think is exactly what MW wants.
[Kirby] I kind of prefer 'i', too. The argument for playing at 'a' seems to be that, if we don't play 'a', our cut from before is a waste. Well, I don't think that this is the case if the cut has made 'i' something that Magicwand will respond to. It will have served the purpose of allowing for us to get 'i' in, and then move on to another part of the board afterward. We get to hit the board very quickly, and I think the cut we made before helps toward that, assuming that Magicwand responds to 'i'. If Magicwand does not respond to 'i', then we can pull out at 'a' at that time, and 'i' will be helpful. From this perspective, I'd like to vote 0.8 for 'i' and 0.2 for 'a'.
[daniel the smith] I hope that "if we don't play 'a', our cut from before is a waste" is not the argument people are intending to make for playing at ''a'', because it's a bad argument (sunk costs fallacy). We can't make a bad move (if indeed it was) into a good one by persisting in the same error... I think the argument people are actually making is, "it's a good time to split white and fight hard". I just don't think that's what the position calls for; I think if we fight here we'll have a local disadvantage, or an even fight-- certainly we have no local advantage here.
When I wanted the cut originally, it was because I thought MW would have to spend a lot of moves controlling the cutting stone, not because I wanted to split him with a heavy group. If we get half the corner, ''i'', and sente (which we may or may not use as in 26.I below) out of the deal I'll consider that cut to have been pretty successful. My overall plan is to maintain sente as much as possible and leave a lot of unpleasant aji for white (and very little for us). I especially do not want to make white thick if I can possibly help it. I don't want to start a running battle or another sort of fight until it's clear that we have more/better/thicker stuff to run to than white does.
Now one could argue that the five of us together should be able to outread MW in a fight, therefore cutting and fighting is good, all other things being equal. But I personally don't feel the need to test this when I don't think fighting here is necessary at all.
...hmm, I think I convinced myself while writing that. .9 ''i'', .1 ''a''. I'd also be in favor of anything that accomplishes the same thing; maybe one point south of ''i'' is slightly better (play away from thickness)?
[daniel the smith] (after [topazg]'s comments on the diagrams) Honestly not sure if I prefer Diagram 26.A.3.B or Diagram 26.I-- .5 ''a'', .5 ''i''. Let's take a vote, I think we've discussed enough.
[Dusk Eagle] I'm still going to vote for ''a'', even though I now think ''i'' is better than I originally thought.
[topazg] I'm going to have to sit out of this game for a while. A few things have come up in the last few weeks that have lost my motivation for Go. I think my ability to help constructively is proportional to the amount of energy I invest, and right now that's "not much". Feel free to vote without me.
[daniel the smith] I think it'd be fairest to play ''a''. With Joaz and topazg not voting for a few days, ''i'' might be able to win, but if they voted I think it's clear that ''a'' would win. I'm ok with either one at this point.
[JoazBanbeck] Found a few secs from govt crap; I like 'a'. Bye.
[Kirby] I'm alright with 'a'.
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Diagram 26.A.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O 4 . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 1 3 5 . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
[daniel the smith] I thought of this while making the below diagram. Make white heavy and split at the last possible moment?
[topazg] I think White will ignore 3 and save his two stones.
[daniel the smith] And let us capture? I'd be pretty happy about that, I think. Thrilled, actually!
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Diagram 26.A.2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . 3 . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
[daniel the smith] This is my first idea if we play ''a''.
[topazg] I like this.
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Diagram 26.A.3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
[daniel the smith] And what if white does this?
[topazg]I added my choice for '3'.
[daniel the smith] What if play goes like Diagram 26.A.3.B?
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Diagram 26.A.3.A
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . 7 . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . 4 . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 , . 5 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
[daniel the smith] Hmm... ok for us, I think. Seems tricky but the five of us should be able to avoid the traps. White has clear profit and we have a major attack, I think.
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Diagram 26.A.3.B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O 5 . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[daniel the smith] This looks very similar to Diagram 26.I to me, except white has the side and we have more in the middle. It's pretty clear what we each got, but I'm not sure if it's good or not.
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Diagram 26.I
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X W . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X W . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O 3 5 . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . x . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[daniel the smith] If we play ''i'', this seems like a reasonable followup. I like this because nothing of ours is remotely in danger, but we have a thick group staring at those two white stones. And white's other group still has aji.
[topazg] I think this is yucky
We are throwing huge investment into capturing the 2 marked stones, and White can skip out into the middle. We've gained less points from the capture than we lost in the corner by cutting at 'h'. Sunk fallacies aside, I think the cut is overplay, but not a complete mistake, and we should try to make it good with consistent followups. We can't keep changing plans. We've cut, so we want to make his groups weak - let's split him and make him run a bit.
[Dusk Eagle] The plus side of this diagram is that we can attack white's two stones on top (and perhaps his one stone on the right as well). However, doesn't B1 feel too close to thickness?
[daniel the smith] @topaz, I'm not attached to 3 and 5. If W2, B3 at ''x'' is likely to be sente, and then we could ''e'' or something. Does that look any better? @DE, I kinda agree, would one space lower be better?
[Dusk Eagle] It looks better to me anyway.
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But the voting system that evolved is cool.
