110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

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Laman
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Laman »

hmm, not an easy decision for white. i see two possible sequences, both pretty simple but neither very satisfying... preparation move at 1 followed by an attack at 'a' or 'b', based on what direction do you want to drive black in. i guess 'b' looks better, creating potential for reduction of black upper side and for making white points in the left center

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X 2 X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . b . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . c . . . d . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

white position is not really bad, just his stones look somewhat overstretched everywhere...

and i hope that Kirby won't for all that patience miss one of big, nasty invasions at 'c' or 'd' (i think 'd' is slightly preferable)
Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Laman,
Laman wrote:i guess 'b' looks better
I think (b) is wrong direction; W wants (a). :ws: is already solid, so there's no profit (b) area.
Also, :wc: is getting weak, so W wants to help :wc::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . X . , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . W . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X 2 X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . b . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . @ . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
For example, B's top starts to get weak: later, W has (c), or (d) leaning attack, and W profits in center (e) area:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . c . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X 2 X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 4 . . . . e . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . d . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Kirby
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I read out the following moves:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 1 . , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . e a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X d c . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Nothing really attacks black effectively at this point. These areas seem like aji keshi. I will try to keep being patient.

I will try to endure his blows for now. I do not have experience to say so authoritatively, but I have a hunch that turning around a game cannot be done with a single move. I do not see a path to bringing white on top, yet... So I will play what I think Shaddy called an "80% move".

Man, this is really not my style. My play seems slow and to lack spirit (I know that the peanut gallery probably thinks that slow and spiritless play is my style :D )... But what good is (so-called) "spirit" if I cannot read a good result?
be immersed
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Post by EdLee »

Kirby,
Kirby wrote:I read out the following moves:
What was your reading for (b) and (c)?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X . c . .
$$ | . . . b . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Kirby
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Re:

Post by Kirby »

EdLee wrote:Kirby,
Kirby wrote:I read out the following moves:
What was your reading for (b) and (c)?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X . c . .
$$ | . . . b . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


EdLee:
I think that this way of attacking is good if I am actually putting the stones under pressure. If the board were like this, I think that I would like to play that way:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . W . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, I'd like this (although I have an extra white stone on the board here :)):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . W . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X 2 X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As it is, though, I don't feel very satisfied with the attack, because it is so easy for white to get additional eyespace whenever he wants to with the marked point:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . B a O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or, if the stones are in the right spots in the future, maybe around 'a' could work, too.

In any case, it just doesn't seem like I can really attack black strongly, and I leave a weakness around the marked area if I play that way in the game:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . C . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X 2 X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Of course, I can protect that area in the future, but I am not convinced that I've gotten much out of the attack.

And if my attack is not that profitable, I'd prefer to leave myself options for the future.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

EdLee:
By the way, because of that reason, I thought about trying to do something like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 2 X 4 X . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But I could not think of a good response for the case where black played lightly like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
be immersed
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Puppycakes »

I think that I'd exchange the peep so that black can't easily attach to my stones if I was white. I don't know if white can't jump out again after that, but I like that exchange because if I was black, I'd certainly attach to white's stones and try to strengthen my group.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Marcus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Remember this diagram from my musings on an earlier move?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, now I get space and make good shape, since I already have a stone where :w4: would have been played.

I kind of expect the same general sequence, and then Kirby will attack my top. That just feels like how the game will progress.

I'm not really as strong up top as I'd like to be ... which, looking back, is a direct result of playing :w27: . With :b33: now, I'm trying to follow the common idea to strengthen your weakest group. my two stones are by far the weakest group on the board, so I need to do something to give them space.

As a side note, I think Kirby missed an opportunity here. The peep costs him nothing and forces me to decide what I want to do with that group immediately. If I connect against the peep, I've sunk more resources into a small group. Looking at the board, I might even have considered allowing Kirby to cut off the C12 stone and try to make thickness with the aji instead of trying to save both stones.

Every time I look at the board, I become more and more convinced that :w27: was the wrong way to play. I'm still paying for it, even if Kirby hasn't been pressing on the group as hard as he could be.

That's a good lesson for up and coming SDKs in the ... always consider how weak your group is going to be before making that first move. I jumped in at C12 without thinking about how badly I could be squeezed, and I'm paying for it by having to manage yet another weak group until it has enough space to be worth it.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

I feel his last move was slow. I am considering a tenuki.

If I do respond, maybe I'll go with c10, and even then, I feel like I got more than black.

I'll read a bit more...
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X 4 , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Marcus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . 5 . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is, of course, part of the reason I'm regretting :b27: ... I need to watch out for both the top and my weak left group.

There's no way I can ignore this move. Kirby will have at least one more forcing move up top (likely more than one) which build up some strength to again turn and attack my left group.

Gotta keep on my toes.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 6 X . . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Marcus »

Heh, the crosscut was kind of expected. However, I'm going to need a fair bit of time to decide what I want to do. Please note that there are actually very few ways I can threaten a ladder. Kirby has ladder breakers in a lot of good places.

Good move, Kirby, and good timing. I applaud you ... now let's see if I can make your life more difficult. :rambo:
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Marcus »

I have to say this has been an enjoyable game so far, Kirby. Thank you for agreeing to play me.

You've got me really thinking on this move. I'm 95% sure of what I'm going to play, but there's one final sequence I'm still trying to wrap my head around, because it smells like deep trouble for me.

More thoughts for observers:

My previous post isn't very detailed. This is an important juncture in the game. It seems like it's important to explain what I am thinking here, not just for the benefit of weaker players, but so that later on stronger players can point out possible flaws in my reasoning. A couple extra diagrams in this post, bear with me. :mrgreen:

In a crosscut fight, the majority of situations call for extending from one of your stones. The idea is to threaten a ladder in some direction with the justification that your opponent will have to respond to save the threatened stone.

In this case, though, there doesn't seem to be any definitely good way for me to threaten a ladder:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Ridiculously detailed diagram
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . g . . Z . 6 X a . . Y O O O O e . |
$$ | . . . @ . . c X O , . . Y f Y O Y O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . d . . . . . . Y Y Y Y . |
$$ | . . . @ . @ . @ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . Q . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's easy to eliminate d as an option, as I'm just butting my stone against White's strong :ws: stones. That still leaves us with 3 other possibilities (all much better than d, in my opinion).

What does each of the remaing 3 "typical" crosscut answers mean for the game? A brief discussion on my feelings of the three moves before I go too deep:

a) This move jumps out at me to be considered first. Already there's a flaw in playing a, since White is already set up with a ladder breaker :wt: so he doesn't have to immediately save that stone. However, it does try to keep at least partially attached to the :bt: group ... which still has a flaw at f where white can push-cut ... thouh Black can make a bit of room with e ... I need to watch out for the :bt: group carefully, as it could spell disaster if I mismanage it.

EDIT: I found a working "ladder"! (not a true ladder, but a secure capture nonetheless). If White does not defend, I can capture the stone in the following manner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 8 7 0 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X B 6 . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O 2 4 . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 3 5 . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-1 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 5 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 X C X O 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X X O 2 X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O O O 7 X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


White is behind by two liberties.


b) This move doesn't feel right to me. I don't see any advantage to it over playing a ... and a feels like a more natural response.

c) This also looks interesting, but allows White to play at a himself, forcing me to capture :w36: ... and breaking into the top side easily. I don't think I'll play this move. I'm not so worried about the :bx: stone because I can still jump into the corner at g with great effect.

Alright, if I decide I'm going to extend from a stone, I will likely play at a. Both b and c allow White to too easily reduce the top.

I could also atari one of the crosscut stones, if I can find a benefit to doing so. I won't look at that until after I look more deeply at a to see what options it gives White.

EDIT: With the newfound capture, a makes even more sense, and atari is looking less and less desirable.

Let's suppose I play a for :b37: ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . g . . X d 6 X 7 . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . a X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . c . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


While reviewing what I had already written, I added d almost as an afterthought. However, a little reading shows that d breaks the "ladder" capture I found above and it provides safety for :w36: . I'm not sure if Kirby sees it, but I have to assume if I can read it out, so can my opponent.

Before considering d, I was looking at a and b as miai, and c as a possible (but inferior) option for White to play.

a) If White plays at a, I can connect underneath at b. White may play this way in order to gain the maximum reduction to the Black area up top. White becomes thick and can next turn to attack my weak group. One slight disadvantage is that the corner at g is still open to invade.

b) Now that I look at it, I don't think White has the option of playing b himself. I think such a move will just die.

c) This move concedes the entire top to Black with no fight. I somehow doubt White will play this way.

After that brief look, I think White's only options are a and d. I'm well prepared for a ... d needs a better look.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 8 6 X 7 . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This move looks to me to be very sharp, and if this is what Kirby has in mind, I applaud him for finding it. I can't just cover the two stones and expect to kill them because he can escape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 2 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X W W X B . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 6 1 X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This reduces the top even further than a move at a, so it would be foolhardy to walk into such a sequence. I'm not sure what my best sequence would be in this case. I need more time to think.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

Thanks, Marcus. It has been enjoyable for me, too.

Although I am losing!
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