Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Violence · Post by **Violence** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:13 am

Er... wait a sec... gotta read...

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:50 am

For observers and Shapenaji only:

Violence wrote:Er... wait a sec... gotta read...

I think that Violence has to change this. As it stands, the latest black move threatens to kill a small group, keeping black busy for two moves. We should be happy to save our group with one move at 2, then make a huge move on the lower side with 4.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . 3 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . O . O X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . 2 X O . O X X . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . | $$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O | $$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . | $$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Worse yet, black's two moves up top have not unequivocally killed the group. It still can start a ko for life. A difficult ko, admittedly, but something better than death. But if we do win it, not only is our group alive, but black's upper middle group is then dead.

I predict that Violence will change to L17.

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:38 am

For obs

Violence · Post by **Violence** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:32 pm

Rejected.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm141 Move 141 W65 B60 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . B . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . O . O X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . | $$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O | $$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . | $$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm141 Move 141 W65 B60 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . 2 7 O 1 . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . O . O X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . 8 X O 4 O X X . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . X X 6 3 O O O X X . | $$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O | $$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . | $$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bleh... this leaves us with a ko... which is basically the worst thing ever right now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm141 Move 141 W65 B60 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . 1 2 O 7 . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O 8 O X . . . O 0 O X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X O 4 O X X . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . X X 6 3 O O O X X . | $$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O | $$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . | $$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

9 @ 3

I'm hoping we can do this...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm141 Move 141 W65 B60 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . X O O X . . . . X 6 . 7 . . | $$ | . X X O O O O X . . 1 O O O X 4 5 . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . 3 X O O O X X . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . X X 2 . O O O X X . | $$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O | $$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . | $$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I just hope I calculated this out correctly.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:40 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm141 Move 141 W65 B60 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . X W O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . O . O X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . | $$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O | $$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . | $$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:19 am

I don't approve.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm141 Move 141 W68 B62 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . X C O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . O . O X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . @ C O . O X X . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . | $$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O | $$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . | $$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We're looking at a ko, so let's weigh the potential losses:
Our NNW group = 25 points
Their NW group 20 points
Our WNW group = 20 points but actually mush larger because the WSW remains barely survive in gote.
Our N group = 37 points

We are short on ko threats

If we protect our NNW group against the latest threat, they can take the ko like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . X 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . O . O X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . X X C 2 O O O X X . | $$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O | $$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . | $$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We can delay the ko with 3 like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . X 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . O . O X 4 . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . 6 X O 3 O X X . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . X X 5 C O O O X X . | $$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O | $$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X | $$ | . . O X . . X . O T X O X . . . . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O T X X O O X X . . . | $$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But we can't ever fill the ko because we lose the subsequent liberties race since black has the two outside liberties marked with triangles.

Either way, playing the ko immediately or delaying it, we come to the hard fact that the biggest ko threat we have is worth about 20 points against their NW group. If they take the ko with 4, we lose a 37-point group, capture a 20 point group in gote, and give them the big play with 6 at the lower side, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 5 3 . . X 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . O . O X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X O 4 C X X . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . X X . 2 C C C X X . | $$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X C C X X O O O | $$ | . O O X . . . O . O X C C X X X X X X | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . X C X . . . . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O X X C X X X X . X X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . | $$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

( The delayed ko looks much the same )

That is a net loss of 17 points and they get the big play first.

On the other hand, if we save our 37-point northern group, and concede our 25-point NNW group, we have a net loss of 25 points, but get the big southern play first. That play has got to be worth more than 8 points.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:36 am

gaius · Post by **gaius** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:53 am

Uuhm... White should have 2 extra points due to daniel_the_smith's a few moves earlier...

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:30 am

gaius wrote:Uuhm... White should have 2 extra points due to daniel_the_smith's a few moves earlier...

Joaz: isn't a correction by a Big Brother if the middle brother approved worth 4 points?

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:17 am

gaius wrote:Uuhm... White should have 2 extra points due to daniel_the_smith's a few moves earlier...

I belive that I included those.

Back when we were waiting for Gresil, we had W65 to B60. Daniel made a correction for 2; Violence for 1. So white has 68. I made a correction for 2 so black has 62.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:32 am

Didn't Violence's correction cost 4? Since I hadn't previously corrected that move?

shapenaji · Post by **shapenaji** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:18 pm

Approved

jts · Post by **jts** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:31 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm141 Move 141 W68 B62 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . X . O B . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . O . O X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . | $$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O | $$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . | $$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Le sigh. I guess they knew that wasn't going anywhere good for them. Not entirely sure why they didn't let us use one more threat... doesn't matter too much, I guess.

I'm going with this because the aji of G19 involves us rapidly losing liberties. (If W plays J19 as a ko threat or something. Hopefully there's nothing I'm missing... I'm not sure why Violence changed threat. Maybe there was a way for W to set up a ko after all?

I now predict J4 or L4, after which... I think invading the lower right corner has got to be big. Call me greedy. The walls will make it really hard to oppose W in the center, but I don't think there's such thing as "oh I can't go 3-3 because it's too late in the game."

And finally, a rough count.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm141 Move 141 W68 B62 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | C C C C C X C W X . . . . . . . C C C | $$ | C X X W W C W X . . . O . O X . C C C | $$ | C X W W C W X X . . O . O . O X X C C | $$ | C X X W W X O X . X X O . O O O X X C | $$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X W W W | $$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X | $$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X C C C C C X | $$ | . . O X C C . . O X X O X X X X C X X | $$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X C C C | $$ | . B B O X . X . . O O O O X O X X C X | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X C | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thinking in terms of area rather than territory hurts my brain. I think we have 66 points of fairly sure territory, and they have 15-20. Clearly they're going to make more territory on the lower side, and they can make a bit more territory on the top. But are they going to make 50 points more than we do? I think we're in very good shape. (Or I counted wrong.)

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:44 pm

Approved.

Violence · Post by **Violence** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:58 pm

Approved.

Life In 19x19

Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

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