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 Post subject: Life and Death from Recent Game
Post #1 Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:33 am 
Dies in gote

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KGS: NousAutres
I was playing black in a face-to-face match when white played this move:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . O . . X . . |
$$ . O X X . W . |
$$ O . O X . . . |
$$ . O . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------[/go]


The resulting sequence killed my corner. Is there any way for black to salvage the position here and make some kind of life?


Last edited by NousAutres on Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Life and Death from Recent Game
Post #2 Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:36 am 
Gosei

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There is something wrong with your diagram (at least there is an extra empty line, and I think by Q you mean W. Like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . O . . X . . |
$$ . O X X . W . |
$$ O . O X . . . |
$$ . O . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------[/go]


e: and to answer your question: black looks pretty dead to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Life and Death from Recent Game
Post #3 Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:39 am 
Dies in gote

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Thanks, I meant to preview :oops:

Fixed in the original post.

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 Post subject: Re: Life and Death from Recent Game
Post #4 Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:02 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . O . . X 1 . |
$$ . O X X . W . |
$$ O . O X . . . |
$$ . O . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------[/go]

1 above seems like only move black can play to stay alive.
not reading too deeply...it is very hard to kill black without ko.

i think you need to give little more info on top and left side.

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 Post subject: Re: Life and Death from Recent Game
Post #5 Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:12 am 
Dies in gote

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KGS: aurik
Looks like ko after B1 given by above, if Black doesn't have a chance to escape along the edge.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . O . . X 1 . |
$$ . O X X . W . |
$$ O . O X 7 0 . |
$$ . O 6 2 3 4 . |
$$ . . . 5 9 8 . |
$$ ------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . 2 . |
$$ . . . O O 1 . |
$$ . O . . X X . |
$$ . O X X . O 3 |
$$ O . O X X O . |
$$ . O O O X O . |
$$ . . . X X O . |
$$ ------------[/go]


Something like this?

edit: that variation actually might just be dead for W. Anyway, there are lots of variations to explore, I wouldn't say this is clearly dead for B. Escape up the right side is a powerful threat.

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 Post subject: Re: Life and Death from Recent Game
Post #6 Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:25 pm 
Dies in gote

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aurik wrote:
Looks like ko after B1 given by above, if Black doesn't have a chance to escape along the edge.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . O . . X 1 . |
$$ . O X X . W . |
$$ O . O X 7 0 . |
$$ . O 6 2 3 4 . |
$$ . . . 5 9 8 . |
$$ ------------[/go]


Something like this?


Black can play :b7: @ W10 and is clearly alive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . O . . X 1 . |
$$ . O X X . W . |
$$ O . O X . 7 . |
$$ . O 6 2 3 4 . |
$$ . . . 5 9 8 . |
$$ ------------[/go]


This is the best I could come up with; looks like white should get at least ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . O . . X 1 . |
$$ . O X X . W . |
$$ O . O X 4 . . |
$$ . O . 3 2 5 7 |
$$ . . . 8 . 6 . |
$$ ------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . O . . X X . |
$$ . O X X . O . |
$$ O . O X O . . |
$$ . O 2 X O X X |
$$ . . 1 O 3 O . |
$$ ------------[/go]


Last edited by Abydos1 on Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Life and Death from Recent Game
Post #7 Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:01 pm 
Dies in gote

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Yes, much better.

B5 allows W to play 6 in sente, setting up the ko. So naturally, I questioned that move, but the alternative B5 @ 7 also seems to lead to ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . O . . X 1 . |
$$ . O X X . W . |
$$ O . O X 4 . . |
$$ . O . 3 2 . 5 |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . h O O f . |
$$ . O . e X 1 g |
$$ . O X X c W a |
$$ O . O X 4 . b |
$$ . O 9 3 2 0 5 |
$$ . . 7 6 8 . d |
$$ ------------[/go]


B@a -> W@b throw-in ko
B@b -> W@a, then if B@c, W@d throw-in ko
B@b -> w@a, if B@d, W@f, B@g, W@c. The corner is bent-4 but not dead as the status of the surrounding B group is questionable, so it will probably be played out as a ko, my guess is that should be played immediately at this point. Once again, W must find the first threat.

See anything I've missed?

Edit: of these options, I like option 2 the best. Option 3 gives W the forcing move at f. Option 1 and 2 look quite close, but option 2 is perhaps slightly better late in the game, as there is the possibility of an additional ko threat (at the 1-1 point) if all of black's outside liberties are filled.

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 Post subject: Re: Life and Death from Recent Game
Post #8 Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:04 pm 
Tengen
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OGS: magicwand
i think it is alive..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . O . . X 1 . |
$$ . O X X . W 5 |
$$ O . O X . 3 . |
$$ . O . 4 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------[/go]

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The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: Life and Death from Recent Game
Post #9 Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:25 pm 
Dies in gote

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KGS: Abydos1
Magicwand wrote:
i think it is alive..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . O . . X 1 . |
$$ . O X X . W 5 |
$$ O . O X . 3 . |
$$ . O . 4 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------[/go]

:o neat, :b3: is a nice tesuji; I can't see anything else then.

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