Interestingly, none of the gang even suggested that.

Too much concerned with their own stones on the left.

Ironically, MW's sequence helps the stones on the left.

You guys seem to assume that what MW suggested is actually good. Right?

I think it's pretty clear that his suggestion is better than what was played. That move was almost a pass.

I don't know if it's good or not, but I think something MW suggests is usually worth considering.

Separating White certainly would have been good. However, White's last move is more or less dame, while Black's move is good preparation for taking the right side. Separating first would be better, but this is not too bad either. White's group is not completely settled anyway.

Why?
Is that a blanket statement because he is a dan player, or are there some good reasons for that?

PS>
There are probably many moves in this position which can be worth considering. Nobody in the right might would expect a player to consider them all.
My gut feeling tells me that what MW suggested is nowhere near the top of the list. Although it still DOES make the list, I think (this is what I would probably play.)

I would be interested to know if a pro would consider this sequence. Anybody has some clout in this respect?

Anyways - I am not invested in this topic.
LONG LIVE MW!!

An attack that creates and splits two heavy groups while at a local advantage, in which all the stones you've been playing are relevant is classically good. It is for this reason (implicitly) we are lauding MW's sequence, not some other reason (as a generalisation at least). Weaker players of course defer to stronger players' judgement of local tactics.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . d . X X X X . X z . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . e . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . X . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . f . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[daniel the smith] Oh, I like that move from white. I'm not sure where to go; ''a'', ''b'', and ''c'' all seem somewhat interesting. I'm certain ''z'' is terrible but I'm drawn to it, also.

[Dusk Eagle] Yeah, I'm kind of embarrassed that I brushed him playing that move off so quickly without seriously considering it. One thing I'm learning right now is the value of that right-angle shape - when I was weaker, I hated it, but now I'm noticing and using it more and more. But I digress.

Anyway, I think we should play ''d'' now. Magicwand has locked our corner group into the corner, so let's settle ourselves comfortably. Otherwise, he might take the corner, which makes his group very strong, ours quite weak and is quite a huge point swing. One of the reasons I didn't vote for the corner last move is because we still had access to the center. With that gone, I think now is the time.

[daniel the smith] Wouldn't that harm our weak group?

[Dusk] Diagram 32.D is what I see.

[JoazBanbeck] I think that the existence of 'z' is one of the reasons that we don't need to play 'd'. He cannot hurt our upper left group. We have eyes regardless of his most vigorous attack.

I like 'e' first ( if I read correctly, it threatens to cut ) followed by 'a' ( or something just a bit looser )

( BTW, I changed the diagram label slightly. Hope that's ok with everyone. )

[Dusk Eagle] Let's say we give white two moves in the corner (two moves, so that he can't take the corner in sente). Can we live with ''z''? (Diagram 32.Tenuki.1.) If not, do we really want to give white the corner in sente?

[Kirby] I don't think that the top left is urgent. I vote 0.8 for 'a', and 0.2 for 'e'.

[daniel the smith] I'm not sure about ''d'', I added 32.D.2. I do agree with DE that we can't ignore two moves against that corner. I like Joaz's idea but I want to think about it more.

[Dusk Eagle] Diagram 32.E.1 makes sense to me. I do have a question about it though - what will we do if he cuts us as in 32.E.2?

[JoazBanbeck]If he cuts like that, we play as in diagram 32.E.3.

BTW, I'm re-reading opening comments for this move. I don't see why you guys are impressed with MW's move. I think that the exchange of our last for his last was a good deal for us. His was a purely defensive move which will yield him approximately zero points in the long run. Its sole virtue was that it connected two weak groups, and it does not do even that particularly well, as we still have forcing moves - such as 'e' - which resurrect the threat to cut.
I'd love to keep making him play zero-point defensive moves.

If it comes to voting, I'm in favor of 'e', but I could get behind a slightly more modest form of 'a' - particularly a two-space pincer. Can those of you in favor of 'a' perhaps re-position it?

[Kirby] I think playing below 'a' (i.e. a looser pincer) is good, too. I just feel that a pincer will work well with the last move we played. I also like 'e'. Basically, white has two groups here, and I want to get both of them weak. If we can do that, we can get some points in compensation. I think tha tmessing around in the top left is a waste of this opportunity, as our group is not in danger. Sure, we might respond if he plays in the top left. But let's take advantage of an opportunity to make his stones weaker. So I'll go for 0.5 for 'f' and 0.5 for 'e'.

[JoazBanbeck] I made diagram 32.F.1, and, having looked at it a bit, I kinda like 'f'. Now, like Kirby, I'm 50/50 between 'e' and 'f'.

[daniel the smith] I think I like ''f'' best. ''e'' feels too thin to me, or something, even though I don't think any of the diagrams below are a convincing refutation of it. .7 ''f'', .3 ''e''.

[JoazBanbeck] That's a shaky majority for 'f' so far. DE, what say you?

[Dusk Eagle] Sorry, I'm in exam period, so I may disappear for a day sometimes. Having looked at what others said, I like ''f'' as well. I'll split my vote between ''e'', ''f'', and ''d''. 0.4 for ''d'', 0.3 for ''e'', 0.3 for ''f''.

%%%%

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm25 Diagram 32.D.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[Dusk Eagle] Is this likely? Do you think it's good for us? I think so to both questions.

[daniel the smith] This seems OK for us, but see next diagram...

%%%%

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm25 Diagram 32.D.2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[daniel the smith] Can white do this? 'Cause this doesn't look so good for us.

%%%%

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Diagram 32.Tenuki.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X X X X . X 4 5 O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[Dusk Eagle] Now what? Or could we play a different B4?

%%%%

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Diagram 32.E.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . 3 . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . 1 . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[JoazBanbeck] This is the follow up which makes B1 sente. Then we play 'a'. Soon afterwards, 'x' becomes a big move for us.

And as long as we are playing moves which threaten the imminent death of some white stones that would connect our upper left group, we need not fear even a dozen moves by MW in the upper left corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Diagram 32.E.2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . 1 4 2 X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 5 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[Dusk Eagle] Suppose he does this. What should we do from here? Simply play ''a''?

[JoazBanbeck] ...and force a cutting stone to become stronger? See 32.E.3 below.
%%%%

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Diagram 32.E.3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . 2 O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . 1 X O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[JoazBanbeck] Something like this looks good for us. Not only is it objectively a decent game, but it would force MW to play a sstyle that is exactly opposite what he likes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Diagram 32.E.4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . 1 . 2 X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[daniel the smith] Making this diagram so I can think about it... I guess this cut is fine for us.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Diagram 32.F.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . e . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I like the two space pincer a lot better. When he defends the pincered stone, we have an extension to B3.

I can't help but notice that there are lots of in depth diagrams about the left side, but only one very sparse diagram about the move actually chosen.

last few moves black played dont make any sense to me.
attacking one stone is too easy for me to tenuki.

when you are ahead or playing handycapped game all you need to do is take care of your weak stones.
that is why i think black's last move was a mistake.

if i was black...i would play as below.
if white is strong everywhere it would be running for your life.
but white is not strong. all he need to do is split my group and take care of his pillar stone.
that will reveal my weakness naturally.

if he plays as below i would not answer and tenuki because i dont like the result.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 1 . 3 . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Go to sensei's and vote!

This doesn't feel right, but I don't want to hold the game up...

[JoazBanbeck] This feels a bit desperate to me. He has a group up top that can be threatened with enclosure if we play around 'x'. He has a side group that can be threated with death if we get something like 'a' or 'b' and the upper left corner. And he has an isolated stone in the middle of the board. If we flail about in the right manner, we should be able to make threats and make our group much stronger.

I suggest something like 'a' thru 'd'.

[Kirby] We could also consider 'e'. I'm actually slightly uncomfortable in this position. Our group is a bit weak. I'd like to strengthen it in some way that doesn't result in giving him a lot in return. I don't know what the answer is, though. I definitely don't like 'b' for exactly the refutation that Joaz has written out.

[JoazBanbeck] I don't see how 'e' works for us. My first reflex is to say that one should not stengthen a weak stone by attaching to it. @Kirby: What is your intended continuation? Can you do diagram 34.E.1?

It is probably too slow, but I added 'f' and 'g' as possibilities. I'm developing a lot more respect for MW's latest move, and I'm currently favoring 'g'.

[daniel the smith] ''x'' is my first thought. ''g'' feels kinda heavy. Can he really connect underneath if we play ''x''?

[Dusk Eagle] Once again, I like Magicwand's move. It feels like it has good flow to it. The problem with ''x'', I think, is that Magicwand can play ''c''. I'm thinking about pincering with ''h''. He can't connect at ''c'', because we can then ko-lock him, but if he jumps out, we can connect at ''e''. It also follows the proverb(?) "pincer before running."

[daniel the smith] If we play ''h'', can't MW just play ''e''? It would prevent our connection and threaten to make his own at the same time. I'm not sure we'd have time to prevent his connection...

[daniel the smith] (later) OK, I just thought about it some more. I think ''h'' and ''g'' both fail after white ''i'': we have to lose sente to break the connection. ''h'' is better, as we we'll have a useful stone afterwards, and it will be a running fight.

OK, how about ''i'' itself for us? If white plays ''d'', we have a choice--scoop out the side and sack the center, or forcibly separate and sack the stone at ''i''. Something to think about. We have a great position on the right but we're paying dearly for it over here. I wish we didn't have this heavy group to deal with. I don't think we really have a good move here. My preference right now, I think, is to find the best way to sack that heavy group. It's tying our hands, I want it to go away. We can't fight here, we're outnumbered 2-1 at least. I guess if I have to pick from the available options, I'd choose ''h''. If it were my own game I'd play ''i'' as an experiment.

[Dusk Eagle] Even if he does play ''i'', we can disconnect him later (sadly, I don't think it would be good to do right away. I don't want to sac our cutting stones, but I still vote ''h'', unless someone comes up with a better idea.

[daniel the smith] No activity for a while. Time to vote? I think ''h'' is winning?

[JoazBanbeck] There is no way I can vote for a move without havng seen the diagram that shows the next few moves.

BTW, are we over-focussed on the left side? Is this one of the situations that might be best left alone while we gain something someplace else?

Has MW hacked Daniel's account? We can't sacrifice that group!

[daniel the smith] Lol. No, that's really me. I added one possibility after ''h''.

[Kirby] I'm OK with pretty much anything right now. I'd like to get the game moving, again.

[daniel the smith] OK, people, this is ridiculous. Vote! I'm playing ''h'' if no one says anything in the next 24 hours or so.

[JoazBanbeck] IMHO, 'h' is extremely low priority. ( If we don't play 'h', is he going to play it soon? ) I vote for 'd'.

[Kirby] I vote 1/3 for 'x', 1/3 for 'h', and 1/3 for 'd', I guess.

[daniel the smith] Argh of course you guys made it a tie. Assuming DE still likes ''h'' I think we should play ''h''. Or Kirby could make up his mind.

''h'': 1.0 (dts) + .33 (Kirby) = 1.33
''x'': .33 (Kirby)
''d'': 1.0 (Joaz) + .33 (Kirby) = 1.33

[Kirby] Ok, then. 'd' it is.

another unexpected move by black..

another unexpected move