Cho ChiHoon(ChKun)

Higher level discussions, analysis of professional games, etc., go here.
John Fairbairn
Oza
Posts: 3724
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:09 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 4672 times

Re: Cho ChiHoon(ChKun)

Post by John Fairbairn »

I think it stands to reason that the quality of a game depends on you definition of quality. To some, this could mean optimal play. To others, there is something fascinating - skillful - maybe finesseful (?) about having the skill to play well under time pressure.

Consider the field of AI. Many machine learning algorithms are not deterministic. The use probability to infer likely best decisions given a set of incomplete information. Some such algorithms can do amazing things, from detecting stuff in images, to predicting stock trends, to even playing go under time constraints. If I were to measure the quality and intelligence of such algorithms compared to a brute-force algorithm that they teach in a high school math class, the non-deterministic algorithm is often much more complex, elegant, and impressive to me.

In the same way, I am not impressed if someone can brute force the solution to 5x5 tic-tac-toe in 5 days. I am impressed if someone can show the aptitude to make probabalistic decisions in the face of uncertainty under tight time constraints playing the same game.

I won't claim that crappy fast play is impressive. But near-optimal play under fast time constraints is. It shows intuition, skill, and quick thonking more than slow games often do.

If a computer can brute force go by calculating for 1000 years, that's impressive. But if there's a 5d algorithm that can decide moves in under 5 seconds - well, that's more pressive to me. It shows true skill and aptitude in the underlying algorithm - something more than basic, run-of-the-mill brute force.


Wow, there's an awful lot to challenge there. The very first statement - you pays your money and you takes your choice - may seem unobjectionable, but definitions of quality are also subject to quality tests. You get what you pay for. While I can believe that a tag artist who climbs onto a bridge parapet and daubs his graffiti at high speed before the police helicopter comes over might impress some people more than an artist who first builds a secure scaffold and then paints the Sistine chapel at leisure. But I don't think they are being impressed by the art.

I'm no mathematician, but I still have a hunch that the work of people like Samuels who found the alphabeta algorithm and all its subsequent variations that made brute-force searches a practical reality in AI is at least as impressive, era for era, as the probabilistic work of other academics who seem mostly to be building on that work.

But the main objection is surely to the implication that go experts who play slowly are using brute-force. As far as I can tell they are using exactly the same probabilistic thought processes as if they play fast, with the crucial difference that they have time to do a quality check. I can't see any significant downside to slow play in go quality terms. Fast play just suits the short attention spans of modern tv audiences better. Not much of a recommendation.
User avatar
emeraldemon
Gosei
Posts: 1744
Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 1:33 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Has thanked: 697 times
Been thanked: 287 times

Re: Cho ChiHoon(ChKun)

Post by emeraldemon »

trout wrote:Japanese go plays longer game and other country are playing shorter game.


I don't think this is true, or at least it's an exaggeration:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?ProfessionalTournamentTimeLimits

A true statement is: "The big 3 Japanese titles have longer games than other tournaments."

But the gaps, especially in the main tournament, are not that large. The Meijin, Honinbo, and Kisei use 5 hours per player in the main league. The main Korean titles use 4 hours in the main tournament, like the Gosei. Most international cups and Chinese domestic tournaments use 3 hours, like the Judan, Oza, and Tengen.

When Cho U battles Iyama Yuta over the Tengen today (maybe they've already played?), he'll get 3 hours, the same amount of time he was given when he lost to Kim Jiseok in last year's Fujitsu cup at the round of 8.
Kirby
Honinbo
Posts: 9553
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Has thanked: 1583 times
Been thanked: 1707 times

Re: Cho ChiHoon(ChKun)

Post by Kirby »

John Fairbairn wrote:... Fast play just suits the short attention spans of modern tv audiences better. Not much of a recommendation.


I guess I will try to summarize my perspective concisely:
1.) I believe that fast play is an exhibition of fast thinking. I think that fast thinking is an admirable quality, which deserves respect.

2.) It's a little snarky to say so, but I also can't help but wonder if fans of slow playing pros that lose against faster playing opponents use time limits as an excuse for the loss.
be immersed
John Fairbairn
Oza
Posts: 3724
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:09 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 4672 times

Re: Cho ChiHoon(ChKun)

Post by John Fairbairn »

It's a little snarky to say so, but I also can't help but wonder if fans of slow playing pros that lose against faster playing opponents use time limits as an excuse for the loss.


Slow players who are good enough to have fans, i.e. titlewinners, are invariably winners of quickplay titles, too. So these fast-thinking players deserve your respect, too. There has been a lot of research that shows that experts in many fields nearly always make the same decision whether they have lots of time or little time to think about it. The fast thinking occurs whether you play slowly or fast, and a pro knows almost at once which move he is likely to play. This is quite different from we amateurs do. A little extra time can make a big difference to the move we choose. For a pro the extra time is, as I've said, not about finding moves but mainly about quality control. Fast pro games therefore have no extra skill requirement specially worthy of respect. They just skip the quality control.

I suspect what you really would like to say is that Korean players are better than Japanese at present. I'd have no problems with that, at fast or slow speeds. But, on average, slow Japanese games surely still have more quality than Mickey Mouse Korean ones.
User avatar
tchan001
Gosei
Posts: 1582
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:44 pm
GD Posts: 1292
Location: Hong Kong
Has thanked: 54 times
Been thanked: 534 times
Contact:

Re: Cho ChiHoon(ChKun)

Post by tchan001 »

It seems that with more modern games, sometimes I read the commentaries in Weiqi Tiandi and see pros reflecting on their own games and tell us about moves they regret having made at certain junctures in their games. When compared with JF's comment about how the classical Japanese games would be mainly mistake free, it seems that pros of the past had higher quality games in terms of self satisfaction in their plays.
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.
Kirby
Honinbo
Posts: 9553
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Has thanked: 1583 times
Been thanked: 1707 times

Re: Cho ChiHoon(ChKun)

Post by Kirby »

John Fairbairn wrote:
It's a little snarky to say so, but I also can't help but wonder if fans of slow playing pros that lose against faster playing opponents use time limits as an excuse for the loss.


Slow players who are good enough to have fans, i.e. titlewinners, are invariably winners of quickplay titles, too. So these fast-thinking players deserve your respect, too. There has been a lot of research that shows that experts in many fields nearly always make the same decision whether they have lots of time or little time to think about it. The fast thinking occurs whether you play slowly or fast, and a pro knows almost at once which move he is likely to play. This is quite different from we amateurs do. A little extra time can make a big difference to the move we choose. For a pro the extra time is, as I've said, not about finding moves but mainly about quality control. Fast pro games therefore have no extra skill requirement specially worthy of respect. They just skip the quality control.

I suspect what you really would like to say is that Korean players are better than Japanese at present. I'd have no problems with that, at fast or slow speeds. But, on average, slow Japanese games surely still have more quality than Mickey Mouse Korean ones.


I guess I agree with a good portion of this post, although I intentionally do not want to make distinctions between countries. For one, it's hard for me to be objective. In addition, there are distributions of skill that likely overlap between a number of countries.

As far as "quality" of games go, it is difficult to measure this, unless you say exactly what constitutes a quality game - or even what constitutes a game. You could consider a game to be the board states only, with the board states consisting only of stones on intersections. If you include "time spent on move" or "average time constraint on move" in that state, it seems that you'd end up with a different set of "quality" games.

If you think of time as a constraint that is part of the game, good use of time is certainly an aspect of quality of play.
be immersed
User avatar
emeraldemon
Gosei
Posts: 1744
Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 1:33 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Has thanked: 697 times
Been thanked: 287 times

Re: Cho ChiHoon(ChKun)

Post by emeraldemon »

John Fairbairn wrote:But, on average, slow Japanese games surely still have more quality than Mickey Mouse Korean ones.


Could you be a bit more specific? The major Korean titles allow at least 3 hours per player. Are these "Mickey Mouse" time controls?
John Fairbairn
Oza
Posts: 3724
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:09 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 4672 times

Re: Cho ChiHoon(ChKun)

Post by John Fairbairn »

Could you be a bit more specific? The major Korean titles allow at least 3 hours per player. Are these "Mickey Mouse" time controls?


I haven't checked, so don't go putting this on SL, but I don't think I'll be far off when I say only the GS Caltex and Kuksu are now 3 hours. The Ch'eonwon is now 1 hour. The Myeongin (the one I'm least sure about), Siptan, KPI Cup and Maxim are all about 10 mins plus 40 secs, and the KBS and Baduk League are even faster. The lower profile events such as the Senior events are also 10 mins. Among the women only the Kuksu is 3h, while the Myeongin is 1h.

Even in the international events, the BC Card Cup is 1 hour each and the Samsung 2h. The Nongshim is 1 hour. Only the LG is 3h.

The top Koreans are mostly playing around 70 games a year and have even gone over 90. I estimate that at least 80% of those players' games are quickplay. Never mind Mickey, this is Donald Duck territory.
Kirby
Honinbo
Posts: 9553
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Has thanked: 1583 times
Been thanked: 1707 times

Re: Cho ChiHoon(ChKun)

Post by Kirby »

I'm not sure how relevant it is to this discussion, but I think the 38th (2010) Myeongin had time limits of 2 hours with 3 periods of 60 seconds per person, iirc. I'd have to look up the others.
be immersed
User avatar
emeraldemon
Gosei
Posts: 1744
Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 1:33 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Has thanked: 697 times
Been thanked: 287 times

Re: Cho ChiHoon(ChKun)

Post by emeraldemon »

I'd certainly like it if someone who spoke Korean could help me with these numbers, it's very possible that they're wrong. I first asked about it in this thread: http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2025.

The time limit for Myeongin I found (3 hours, 5 hour final) on GoGame world, which could just be incorrect:
http://www.gogameworld.com/gophp/pg_titlelist_detail.php?title=Myungin.

Also I have that Chunlan & Ing Cup are 3 hours, and BC Card Cup is 2, but those numbers come from wikipedia or SL, either of which could easily be a mistake.

I am genuinely curious about this, so I'd be happy to find out that I'm wrong!
John Fairbairn
Oza
Posts: 3724
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:09 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 4672 times

Re: Cho ChiHoon(ChKun)

Post by John Fairbairn »

Also I have that Chunlan & Ing Cup are 3 hours, and


These are not Korean events.

The 2nd BC Card Cup was 1h each plus 30x3 according to the yearbook, and it looks like the Myeongin is 2h + 3x60. I can't be bothered to check the rest, sorry.
RobertJasiek
Judan
Posts: 6273
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 797 times
Contact:

Re: Cho ChiHoon(ChKun)

Post by RobertJasiek »

John Fairbairn wrote:Going back to players rather than games, with the exception of Takemiya, I can't think of any modern player who can be said to have re-defined go theory in some significant way


There are researchers who have redefined go theory significantly.
User avatar
tchan001
Gosei
Posts: 1582
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:44 pm
GD Posts: 1292
Location: Hong Kong
Has thanked: 54 times
Been thanked: 534 times
Contact:

Re: Cho ChiHoon(ChKun)

Post by tchan001 »

Unfortunately researchers who redefine go theory are not at the top of most player's mind when they think about go theory. Which is why a lot of famous go books are ghost written and then published as being "written by" or "written in collaboration with" brilliant famous go professionals.
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.
trout
Gosei
Posts: 1334
Joined: Mon May 03, 2010 9:19 am
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 528 times

Re: Cho ChiHoon(ChKun)

Post by trout »

Here is current time setting for Korean Tournament.
(From Oro information) It is for final unless specified otherwise.

Kuksu 3 hours 5x1m
HighOne resort cup 2 hours 3x1m
KBS Baduk king 5 minutes 5x30sec
GS Caltex cup 2 hours 3x40sec
Chunwon 1 hour 3x40sec
Maxim Coffee cup 10 minutes 3x40sec
Korea Price information cup 10 minutes 3x40sec
SipDan 10 minutes 3x40sec
JiJi Auction 10 minutes 3x40sec
2011 Baduk League short game 5x40sec, long game 1 hour 5x40sec

DaeJu cup Preliminary: 1 hour 3x1m, Main 15minutes 3x40sec

olleh kt cup 1 hour 3x40sec

Woman Kuksu 3 hours 5x1m
Woman MtoungIn 1 hour 3x40sec
Woman Kisung 1 hour 1x1m
John Fairbairn
Oza
Posts: 3724
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:09 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 4672 times

Re: Cho ChiHoon(ChKun)

Post by John Fairbairn »

There are researchers who have redefined go theory significantly.


Wasn't this first said by Hugh Briss?
Post Reply