115 - robinz v. 1986

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Sun May 01, 2011 7:32 am

1986:

If you wish to sacrifice (not saying thats good) then this is the move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm48 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O a O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If you played at 'a' as in game, you must commit to saving that group. It is way too big to throw away like this.

Robinz:
Both of you can read Ed's comments now.

1986 · Post by **1986** » Sun May 01, 2011 11:35 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm56 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i was thinking i can play a move to expand my moyo, or breakout into the center but i think
i rather take sente,
here are my variations

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm56 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 7 . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X 8 X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . 9 . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm56 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X 2 X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm56 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 X 3 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 8 1 . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X 2 X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . 9 . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Sun May 01, 2011 12:07 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm57 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, the peep it is! I mentioned in my last post that I'd seen this, and decided I was OK - now that it's happened, I guess I'd better explain. Firstly, the natural connection at D9 doesn't work, as I lose my base entirely:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm57 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 b . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . a X 1 X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

- and I can't get both a and b.

So I connect at :w58:

above instead. Clearly white will now push and cut through my one-space jump, but in the following line I have a working ladder:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm57 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X 2 X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White can make the other cut instead, of course:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm57 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X 2 X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . 5 3 4 . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

- this is certainly better for white than the previous sequence, and I don't have everything entirely comfortable. But white is now going to have to watch his C7 stone as well as D9/10 - the C6 clamp now looks interesting, for example. I'm hopeful that between these possibilities I can get some breathing space for my group. (It also now occurs to be that :b61:

above at D7 instead may well work - so there's some more reading to be done :study:

)

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Sun May 01, 2011 12:18 pm

Aphelion wrote:Robinz:
Both of you can read Ed's comments now.

Thanks, I have, and have the following question for Ed, or any other observer (hidden, both to keep things tidy, and in case 1986 doesn't want to look yet):

1986 · Post by **1986** » Sun May 01, 2011 12:27 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm58 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Sun May 01, 2011 1:18 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm59 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

1986 · Post by **1986** » Sun May 01, 2011 2:05 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm60 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm60 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i would go further but i rather see if he protects or pushes in the actual game

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Sun May 01, 2011 2:35 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

OK, not one of the moves I said I expected, but at least I anticipated it for once ;-)

At first I thought this was rather easy for me - I get to capture something, and am then more or less completely alive, and still with easy access to the centre.

However, while typing this post I saw that he has the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O 3 . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is a little worrying - I'm sure I won't die here, but I'll have to scramble a bit into the centre in order to live, meaning I can't yet tenuki and invade where I want to). But, after looking at the alternatives, I'm sure :b61:

is my best move, and the above position is hardly disastrously bad for me, especially as it's my move. (I am tempted to play :b67:

at F12, but will read some more and look around for alternatives.)

1986 · Post by **1986** » Sun May 01, 2011 2:42 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm62 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Sun May 01, 2011 2:56 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm63 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O 1 . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun May 01, 2011 4:28 pm

robinz,

robinz wrote:Sure, I see that the shape is bad, in the sense that I get disconnected. But surely that is only so terrible if...

No. It's fundamentally bad. Of course, there are exceptions when you must play this kind of broken shape, but in general it's bad, as it is here.
The first thing to understand is that the shape :b35:

is fundamentally bad for B.
It's like learning about the empty triangle -- often it is bad, but not always, so we learn the exceptions later.

robinz wrote:(Probably my was wrong, as you said.) As I explained in my comment to that ,
I was trying to give eyespace to my lower-right group (and in sente too) - was I wrong to worry about it?

The problem is earlier: :b31:

was bad; you probably have read Post #44 already.
So the cause was :b31:

, and now we're seeing the symptoms and trying to control the damage.
If you want eye space, you can descend to (a), or, you can jump out to (b). But not (c).
Also, not all sentes are good. :b35:

was a very bad sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

lightvector · Post by **lightvector** » Sun May 01, 2011 5:01 pm

@robinz

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ---------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . b | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 2 . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . a . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

This exchange is not good because you haven't significantly limited white's ability to jump into your base. White can still hop in at a, just like he could before :b1:

. However, white has gained at least the ability to monkey jump at b in the endgame. Also, white has gained a little invasion/reduction potential because black's 3 stones are weaker now.

I'm sure you know what it feels like when your opponent makes a monkey jump in the endgame and suddenly all the territory seems to vanish. This exchange costs a lot of points because of this, and in return all you get is a not-really-defended base that white can still hop into unless you spend yet another move.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun May 01, 2011 7:18 pm

robinz, lightvector,

Even if we eliminate all the life-and-death and endgame issues
(by adding the :bc:

stones), the :b1:

exchange is still bad because it is
a fundamentally broken shape for B:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$----------------- $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . O . O O O . | $$. . . X X X O . | $$. X . . . X X . | $$. . . . . O . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . X . . . | $$. . . . , X B . | $$. . . . O X . . | $$. . . . O O 2 . | $$. . . . . 1 . . | $$. . . . X . . . | $$. . . . . . B . | $$. . . . X . . . | $$. . O . . X . . | $$. . . . O B . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$----------------[/go]

It is still bad even if we flip it -- now it has nothing to do with life-and-death, the endgame, or monkey jumps:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . X . . | $$. . . . X . . . | $$. . . . X O . . | $$. . . 2 O O . . | $$. . . . 1 . . . | $$. . . . . X . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . , X . . | $$. . . . X . . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$----------------[/go]

The main thing for robinz (and 1986) to understand is this broken shape for B:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$. . . . . . . . $$. . . . X . . . $$. . . O O O . . $$. . . . X . . . $$. . . . . . . .[/go]

All the other stuff is also bad for B, yes, but it's collateral damage;
the main lesson here is the broken shape.

1986 · Post by **1986** » Sun May 01, 2011 8:18 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm64 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

lightvector · Post by **lightvector** » Sun May 01, 2011 8:51 pm

EdLee wrote:robinz, lightvector,
Even if we eliminate all the life-and-death and endgame issues
(by adding the stones), the exchange is still bad because it is
a fundamentally broken shape for B:
$$B
$$-----------------
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . O . O O O . |
$$. . . X X X O . |
$$. X . . . X X . |
$$. . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . , X B . |
$$. . . . O X . . |
$$. . . . O O 2 . |
$$. . . . . 1 . . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . B . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . O B . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$----------------- $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . O . O O O . | $$. . . X X X O . | $$. X . . . X X . | $$. . . . . O . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . X . . . | $$. . . . , X B . | $$. . . . O X . . | $$. . . . O O 2 . | $$. . . . . 1 . . | $$. . . . X . . . | $$. . . . . . B . | $$. . . . X . . . | $$. . O . . X . . | $$. . . . O B . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$----------------[/go]
It is still bad even if we flip it -- now it has nothing to do with life-and-death, the endgame, or monkey jumps:
$$B
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . X O . . |
$$. . . 2 O O . . |
$$. . . . 1 . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . , X . . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . X . . | $$. . . . X . . . | $$. . . . X O . . | $$. . . 2 O O . . | $$. . . . 1 . . . | $$. . . . . X . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . , X . . | $$. . . . X . . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$----------------[/go]
The main thing for robinz (and 1986) to understand is this broken shape for B:
$$B
$$. . . . . . . .
$$. . . . X . . .
$$. . . O O O . .
$$. . . . X . . .
$$. . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$. . . . . . . . $$. . . . X . . . $$. . . O O O . . $$. . . . X . . . $$. . . . . . . .[/go]
All the other stuff is also bad for B, yes, but it's collateral damage;
the main lesson here is the broken shape.

Life In 19x19

115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re:

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: