Now I get to play on IGS :-)

[daniel_the_smith]

I'd say this is a good example of why the escaper system on KGS is a workable one.

You told the guy to finish the game. He did. No additional threat of punishment from the server was needed. It worked!

Now if only you had told him without swearing or being abusive, maybe he would have resigned anyway. Maybe not. But you wouldn't have gotten booted.

One of us misread the OP; I heard him say the guy didn't resign until he got abusive...

[wms]

With all due respect, it seems that you do not want to see the problems with the escaper system, I have to say.

That's pretty much correct, but it's because there is never (AFAIK) anything new to say. It's always upset people complaining "so-and-so escaped" over and over again. If I thought escapes didn't happen, then that would be worth listening to, but I already know that escapes happen, and hearing a rant on each one isn't anything helpful.

As I've said many, many times: Yes, escapes happen. You will be escaped from sometimes on KGS. The server will catch some of those and award you a win (this is for the escapes from people who do so often). Some of them you will never get your win for. Hopefully occasional escapes is something you can deal with, if not, well, then I guess you do need to go to a different go server. I've been escaped from too. It's no big deal. I consider the game a win and get on with my life.

[Bantari]

Actually, the escaper 'problem' on KGS is EXTREMELY easy to deal with and does not require changes to the server, client, and no attitude adjustments from the admins. I will give you the EXACT recipe, fool-proof, and free of charge! You're ready? Ok then, here it goes:

Don't let it bother you!

That's it. That's how simple it is!
You've got the power to solve your escaper problem once and for all, not only on KGS but on every other server you will ever play on!!! Amazing, ain't it? Just remember - with great power comes great responsibility, grasshopper! Err... methinks I mixed up the movies here, somehow. Nevermind, you get the idea, yes?

Now go conquer the world!

PS> If people spent as much time improving their Go as they do bitching about such inconsequential issues as escapers, we would probably already have a good handful of home-grown pros!

[Redundant]

PSEUDO QUOTE. HE DID NOT SAY THIS, BUT I REPHRASED BANTARI'S EARLIER POST FOR RHETORICAL EFFECT!

Actually, the genocide 'problem' on Rwanda is EXTREMELY easy to deal with and does not require changes to the politics, military, and no attitude adjustments from the populace. I will give you the EXACT recipe, fool-proof, and free of charge! You're ready? Ok then, here it goes:

Don't let it bother you!

That's it. That's how simple it is!
You've got the power to solve your genocide problem once and for all, not only in Rwanda but in every other nation you will ever hear of!!! Amazing, ain't it? Just remember - with great power comes great responsibility, grasshopper! Err... methinks I mixed up the movies here, somehow. Nevermind, you get the idea, yes?

Now go conquer the world!


I hate this sort of attitude, so I've done a reductio ad absurdum on it for you.

EDIT: If one is unfamiliar with what I've done here, note that the quote is not what Bantari actually said. I did a mad-lib on it to show what this attitude, taken to an extreme, leads to. I'm not claiming that he (or any same person) would espouse such a view, but I am showing that the logic here is invalid, and thus his argument is unsound.

[Bantari]

Actually, the genocide 'problem' on Rwanda is EXTREMELY easy to deal with and does not require changes to the politics, military, and no attitude adjustments from the populace. I will give you the EXACT recipe, fool-proof, and free of charge! You're ready? Ok then, here it goes:

Don't let it bother you!

That's it. That's how simple it is!
You've got the power to solve your genocide problem once and for all, not only in Rwanda but in every other nation you will ever hear of!!! Amazing, ain't it? Just remember - with great power comes great responsibility, grasshopper! Err... methinks I mixed up the movies here, somehow. Nevermind, you get the idea, yes?

Now go conquer the world!

I hate this sort of attitude, so I've done a reductio ad absurdum on it for you.

Nice, you have your opinion, I have mine.

However, contributing to me words which I did not say is in *extremely* bad taste, not to mention just plain dishonest and nasty, especially if they are words like you posted above.

Back to the topic - you simply cannot compare genocide anywhere with somebody escaping on a game server! If you do not see the obvious differences, I am not sure anybody can really help you, but see a doctor, who knows. And no, you do not just lightly do reductio ad absurdum. You're talking silly. And highly disrespectful towards all the people going through some really serious hardships in their lives.

There are issues in the world actually WORTH bothering about.
You mentioned one, I could mention more. Getting bent out of shape over a silly game on a silly game server is not one of those issues.

But hey - if you feel the need to waste your energies bitching about escapers, be my guest.
Let me know when you start beating your drum about some more serious issue, though. With your apparent intelligence and enthusiasm it must be quite a sight. Hope you'll become a world leader one of these days... Good luck.

[Kirby]

Actually, the genocide 'problem' on Rwanda is EXTREMELY easy to deal with and does not require changes to the politics, military, and no attitude adjustments from the populace. I will give you the EXACT recipe, fool-proof, and free of charge! You're ready? Ok then, here it goes:

Don't let it bother you!

That's it. That's how simple it is!
You've got the power to solve your genocide problem once and for all, not only in Rwanda but in every other nation you will ever hear of!!! Amazing, ain't it? Just remember - with great power comes great responsibility, grasshopper! Err... methinks I mixed up the movies here, somehow. Nevermind, you get the idea, yes?

Now go conquer the world!

I hate this sort of attitude, so I've done a reductio ad absurdum on it for you.

Nice, you have your opinion, I have mine.

However, contributing to me words which I did not say is in *extremely* bad taste, not to mention just plain dishonest and nasty, especially if they are words like you posted above.

Back to the topic - you simply cannot compare genocide anywhere with somebody escaping on a game server! If you do not see the obvious differences, I am not sure anybody can really help you, but see a doctor, who knows. And no, you do not just lightly do reductio ad absurdum. You're talking silly. And highly disrespectful towards all the people going through some really serious hardships in their lives.

There are issues in the world actually WORTH bothering about.
You mentioned one, I could mention more. Getting bent out of shape over a silly game on a silly game server is not one of those issues.

But hey - if you feel the need to waste your energies bitching about escapers, be my guest.
Let me know when you start beating your drum about some more serious issue, though. With your apparent intelligence and enthusiasm it must be quite a sight. Hope you'll become a world leader one of these days... Good luck.

I think your argument, Bantari, is that "getting bent out of shape over a silly game on a silly game server" is not worth bothering about.

It seems to me that it would be more convincing if you gave a reason why. I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with you, but since we are talking about the logical structure of your argument, I think that this is the core of the issue.

[Bantari]

I think your argument, Bantari, is that "getting bent out of shape over a silly game on a silly game server" is not worth bothering about.

It seems to me that it would be more convincing if you gave a reason why. I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with you, but since we are talking about the logical structure of your argument, I think that this is the core of the issue.

Sure.
There are two reasons, really.

1) The one already implied - There are so many so much more important and serious things to worry about and to get bent out of shape because of. I will not say much about it, this is not the right place, but I guess we all know this to be true.

2) Futility. Let me elaborate:

As long as there were servers, there were issues. Some servers handle escapers 'badly', so people worry about that. Other have people talking too much, so people worry about that (KGS and the EGR fiasco.) Others are too quiet (like the IGS) and people complain about that... and so on... There will *always* be something to nitpick, and something to get bent out of shape about. And the moment one issue gets solved, another will appear or get into the forefront of attention.

Why? Because we are all different, and there is no pleasing us all at the same time. A developer has to pick some middle-ground to sort-of placate the worst problems, but this is usually done at the expense of other things. So I repeat again - there will always be things to complain about.

So, in practice, you have two choices:
1) Let it bother you, bitch about it, and be generally unhappy, or
2) Find it in yourself to raise above such pettiness and enjoy what you are given a little more.

Also, the specific issue of escapers is especially unimportant, I think. Because it is rooted in a particular moment and very fleeting. Tomorrow you'll laught about it, the next day you forget it altogether. A player escaping rather than admiting defeat will have absolutely no impact on your development as a Go player, not now, not ever.

The only way escaping can impact you is - if you let it!
And then it will impact you negatively, make you get angry, spend your energies on complaining and moaning and groaning and being generally unhappy. Instead - I find it much more productive to shrug it off and just play another game.

These are my reasons.

However - I do agree that there is always the impulse to get upset about such things. It is human. But so is escaping itself. It is up to us to give in to such weaknesses or not. Escapers give in. The rest of us should not.

That's all.

[Redundant]

Back to the topic - you simply cannot compare genocide anywhere with somebody escaping on a game server! If you do not see the obvious differences, I am not sure anybody can really help you, but see a doctor, who knows. And no, you do not just lightly do reductio ad absurdum. You're talking silly. And highly disrespectful towards all the people going through some really serious hardships in their lives.

I'm sorry if I offended you, or anyone who has gone through something horrible. However, the point of reductio ad absurdum is to get to something absurd. Seeing your response, I see that I succeeded here.

If you do not see the obvious differences, I am not sure anybody can really help you, but see a doctor, who knows.

Also, please don't flame.

I've also edited my earlier post so that it no one will suppose it to be a real quote.

[hackinger]

Hi,

Serenity prayer:
God, grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
The courage to change the things that I can;
And the wisdom to know the difference.

(This ain't a religious post, just meant as a piece of wisdom.)

In this context, a changed version would be more appropriate which distinguishes between things which are worth the effort to change them and things which are not worth the effort. Now you need the wisdom to know the difference.

Cheers

hackinger

[Bantari]

Back to the topic - you simply cannot compare genocide anywhere with somebody escaping on a game server! If you do not see the obvious differences, I am not sure anybody can really help you, but see a doctor, who knows. And no, you do not just lightly do reductio ad absurdum. You're talking silly. And highly disrespectful towards all the people going through some really serious hardships in their lives.

I'm sorry if I offended you, or anyone who has gone through something horrible. However, the point of reductio ad absurdum is to get to something absurd. Seeing your response, I see that I succeeded here.

Always enjoyed a good absurd.
And yours was fun too.

If you do not see the obvious differences, I am not sure anybody can really help you, but see a doctor, who knows.

Also, please don't flame.

I've also edited my earlier post so that it no one will suppose it to be a real quote.

Well, thanks.
Why not do it right to begin with?

[hackinger]

Hi,

since we are being funny here:

Reductio ad absurdum does NOT translate to absurd reasoning!

EDIT: somebody expressed it even in latin

Cheers

hackinger

[Harleqin]

Redundant: reductio ad absurdum is not the same as reductio absurda.

[SpongeBob]

There are issues in the world actually WORTH bothering about.
You mentioned one, I could mention more. Getting bent out of shape over a silly game on a silly game server is not one of those issues.

If I remember correctly, you got quite involved in a thread on GoDiscussion discussing the quoting style of Robert Jasiek.

But this cannot be compared, I guess.

[Redundant]

Redundant: reductio ad absurdum is not the same as reductio absurda.

My Latin is as good as my Klingon (that is, nonexistent), so I'll guess that what you're saying is that my response was too absurd to be relevant, so let me give a straightforward account of what I was trying to say:

What I tried to do was to show that apathy is not a solution to problems. Apathy does nothing to fix the issue. One may decide the problem too small to be worried about, which in the case of escapers is a totally valid response, but one must not conflate apathy as a response with apathy as a solution.

[xed_over]

I think your argument, Bantari, is that "getting bent out of shape over a silly game on a silly game server" is not worth bothering about.

Any system with flaws is worth bothering about.

But the issue here is that many people assume the KGS escaper policy is flawed, while others do not. And this is where Redundant's reductio ad absurdum falls down, his argument assumes the policy is flawed. But if its not flawed, then it can't be compared in the same way, and we should learn to live with it, as Bantari suggests.

KGS escaper system, as far as I understand, is by design. And so, by design, it is not flawed. It may still have its pros and cons, but its still by design.

Other server systems are designed differently and have their own set of pros and cons.

And learning to live within the current design parameters, is not the same as being apathetic.

I'd like to think that there's at least one possible other reason why the KGS system was designed the way it is, and that is that it also allows the ability to adjourn games and continue them later, even to the point of playing like a turn-based server. I kinda like having that option, even if I don't use it.

There may even be more unspoken reasons for the current design.

Could the current design be improved? Perhaps. Does it need to be? Maybe, maybe not. Its just different. Its not like IGS (and maybe that's another reason for its current design).