Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame

Ember · Post by **Ember** » Mon May 10, 2010 12:38 pm

Hey guys,

after having read for a lot of time your posts on Godiscussions, I decided to join Life in 19x19 and finally post something, too.

Nice to meet you all! I hope we all make good progress on the long road to Shodan and beyond! ^^

This is a situation from a game I (=white) played this evening. I found it really hard to decide what to play next after black O4. I'm looking forward to seeing your ideas!

Greetings from Germany!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . O . . O . . O X . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , X . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . O . . . B . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White to play

unkx80 · Post by **unkx80** » Mon May 10, 2010 12:49 pm

I have a slight dislike of white's position. White leaves behind the marked point, and the :wc:

stones looks inefficient.

I feel like playing :w1:

and

, to enlarge the right side as large as possible. Basically, there's only one place where expansion looks possible.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . O . . O . . O X . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . C , X . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . 2 X X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . W . . . B . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . W . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Mon May 10, 2010 12:53 pm

I think white already made a mistake. E14 might be a good play, to prevent black from building a moyo. But were it my game I'd be counting to see if I should resign first. There's just no dynamic plays available to white. Everything is fixed. It's practically endgame already.

EDIT: OK, unkx80's play helps. But I still don't like white.

Ember · Post by **Ember** » Mon May 10, 2010 12:59 pm

@ unkx80: Wow, that was quick, thank you for your reply, unkx80!

I agree with you that White's position is not that good, I felt the same. And this fact made the decision where to play next even harder.. I had thought about what you suggested but had the feeling that it wasn't enough. Maybe I was wrong there. :-)

In the end, I decided to play E14, because I thought maybe I could harm the left side - which I could have done, had I not made a mistake (which saved me lateron, ironically). Any thoughts about E14 or other possibilities?

@daniel_the_smith: Cool, then my idea wasn't that bad. I agree, White's position is not good, but resigning? Yet? I mean, this is a 6k-7k game.. There are sure to be a lot of mistakes ahead of us both, don't you think? :-)

EDIT: corrected typo

unkx80 · Post by **unkx80** » Mon May 10, 2010 1:08 pm

E14 is okay (although I considered D12 instead), but given that I feel that white is behind, I feel that it is a bit too plain.

Unlike daniel_the_smith, I do not think this game is over. In this kind of territory versus territory game, there aren't spectacular large scale dynamics, but there are many (possibly somewhat boring looking) smaller scale dynamics. Cumulatively, they do make an effect. For example, if one player simply plays passively while the other player plays actively, then the other player might catch up quite quickly.

For example, what happens when white bumps around at E8, D11, R6, or even S5? (Nope, I don't have the answers.)

Post by **Jordus** » Mon May 10, 2010 1:17 pm

I Agree with unkx80 about the :w1:

and

. However, upon closer inspection I almost want to extend whites top left group instead. It looks like a position that will become about life and death rather than one that threatens territory and influence.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Mon May 10, 2010 1:19 pm

I'm sure I'm overly pessimistic in this situation, just because I never get into positions like this if I can help it. I work hard to prevent my opponent from getting such secure positions. Even if I end up with weak groups, too.

KGS 4 kyu · Post by **fwiffo** » Mon May 10, 2010 1:23 pm

unkx80 wrote:For example, if one player simply plays passively while the other player plays actively, then the other player might catch up quite quickly.

I agree with this. It feels like both players have been playing slowly, so white has a chance if he picks up the pace and starts getting aggressive. To me, a move like O4 seems very slow, but maybe black felt that he was ahead and wanted to just play it safe. Seems like overdoing it though.

Ember · Post by **Ember** » Mon May 10, 2010 2:21 pm

Many thanks for all the replies! Now I see that it might be even more complicated than I thought and it seems like I already screwed up before.. ^^; I guess I'll have a look at the opening. Thanks again, and if there are more suggestions, please let me know!

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon May 10, 2010 2:35 pm

Heh, as a lower-ranked player than you or anyone else who's posted, I was most interested in R7. Shows I think too small =)

Post by **Jordus** » Mon May 10, 2010 3:48 pm

Jordus wrote:I Agree with unkx80 about the and . However, upon closer inspection I almost want to extend whites top left group instead. It looks like a position that will become about life and death rather than one that threatens territory and influence.

From what i was talking about earlier.... ( :w11:

at a)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . O . . O . . O X . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . X . O . . . 3 2 , X . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 4 . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . 7 . . . . . . 0 X X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . 9 O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . O . . . B . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

or maybe even make :w1:

extend one further? ( :w11:

at a,

at

,

at b,

at c,

at d)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . O . . O . . O X . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . X . O . . . 3 2 , X . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . 7 . a 0 1 6 . c X X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 9 8 . . . b O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . O . . . B . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

To me, these options give the top left group 100% life and the extra threat of extending out into the middle for a possible connection. And the right group still gets reinforced. (1st diagram option can be used if creating a ko is wanted)

keep in mind I am currently 10k.....

Phelan · Post by **Phelan** » Mon May 10, 2010 3:55 pm

If I had the original position, I'd try to nullify somehow, and when that likely failed, resign.

Edit: ugh, posting late at night... *nullify black's influence to the left*

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon May 10, 2010 5:31 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . O . . O . . O X . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . C , X . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . O . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

unkx80's plan is good.

In addition, there are a number of good places to play. I have marked some of them. There are other places on the left side. The one I marked is a probe, which leaves some aji behind. :w1:

is the famous double knight's move, which the proverb says not to let get away.

mitsun · Post by **mitsun** » Mon May 10, 2010 5:50 pm

The suggestion to expand the W moyo on the right is good. However, the push at N13 does not look like sente, so maybe just play directly around O8.

R7 (or even S6) is bigger than it looks and would also be possible I think.

There is a problem with a plan to expand the upper left -- W needs moves at both E14 (or better the D12-C12-D14 combo) and J16. But once W takes one of these, B can take the other, and W gains little or nothing.

I probably would play the very large endgame moves B17 or C3. If B responds passively, answering both moves locally, then I do not think W is behind in the game. If B does not defend, the follow-up clamp and capture is very large. If B does not answer that, the follow-up hane is very large (since B cannot block without risking ko).

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Mon May 10, 2010 6:03 pm

Bill Spight wrote:
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . O X . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . C , X . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . O . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . O . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . O . . O . . O X . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . C , X . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . O . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

unkx80's plan is good. In addition, there are a number of good places to play. I have marked some of them. There are other places on the left side. The one I marked is a probe, which leaves some aji behind. is the famous double knight's move, which the proverb says not to let get away.

this is first time i disagree with the man i respect the most..
:w1:

looks good but does it have answer for black invasion at "a"?
my choice was "b"

Life In 19x19

Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame

Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame

Re: Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame

Re: Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame

Re: Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame

Re: Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame

Re: Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame

Re: Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame

Re: Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame

Re: Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame

Re: Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame

Re: Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame

Re: Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame

Re: Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame

Re: Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame

Re: Where to play next? Transition from Fuseki to Middlegame