Again and again, I lose what looks like mostly secure territory when the evil computer sneaks around the edge and makes a one-point jump. All my attempts at defense cause more damage. The only remedy I've found so far is to chase them to the corner, losing two lines of territory...
If I play at a, they connect at b. If I play at c they keep running south. If I make any attempt to head them off at d, f or g, they move away from the edge and grab territory in the corner. If I play c, then f, and block their escape attempts, I end up with an indefensible diagonal, and the edge stone is put in atari on the next move.
Thanks for any advice!
How to respond to this attack?
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robinz
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Re: How to respond to this attack?
I think you just need to try not to let your opponent make this one-point jump. I'll let the experts (well, better players than me anyway, which is most of this forum 
) debate the best way to limit the damage at this point, but a fair bit of damage is pretty inevitable by now.
Once black has turned on the edge then "c" is the standard defensive move - and even then black can make some reasonable gains in sente. Better still is not to allow them to turn at all (although sometimes of course this is inevitable).
) debate the best way to limit the damage at this point, but a fair bit of damage is pretty inevitable by now.Once black has turned on the edge then "c" is the standard defensive move - and even then black can make some reasonable gains in sente. Better still is not to allow them to turn at all (although sometimes of course this is inevitable).
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Solomon
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: How to respond to this attack?
I think that the relevant question may lie further back.
I'd want to know why, in the following position, you did not reply with 'b' when it played 'a'.
Or maybe we should go back to a slightly different position, as below, and ask why you are not playing 'b' there.
In other words, you may be having trouble with what is known a 'monkey jump'. There are several pages on it at SL, such as http://senseis.xmp.net/?MonkeyJump
I'd want to know why, in the following position, you did not reply with 'b' when it played 'a'.
Or maybe we should go back to a slightly different position, as below, and ask why you are not playing 'b' there.
In other words, you may be having trouble with what is known a 'monkey jump'. There are several pages on it at SL, such as http://senseis.xmp.net/?MonkeyJump
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: How to respond to this attack?
Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this!"
Doctor: "Well, stop doing that then!"
Seriously, the only right answer is, don't let that happen in the first place. The mistake already happened; everything from this time on is damage control.
Better would have been:
Doctor: "Well, stop doing that then!"
Seriously, the only right answer is, don't let that happen in the first place. The mistake already happened; everything from this time on is damage control.
Better would have been:
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: How to respond to this attack?
Yes, I struggled with these types of invasions when I was first learning the game. Then I got really good at using them on my father, which caused him to stop playing 
. But eventually as the shapes get more familiar you get better at preventing these invasions in the first place.
Also, if you haven't found it yet, be sure to check out Sensei's Library. There's a lot of good material there for beginners.
. But eventually as the shapes get more familiar you get better at preventing these invasions in the first place.Also, if you haven't found it yet, be sure to check out Sensei's Library. There's a lot of good material there for beginners.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: How to respond to this attack?
Yeah, this is why I always recommend people do some learning on a 9x9. It's incredibly frustrating to have an entire game more or less ruined by a little mistake like this. 9x9 is smaller, so it hurts a little less-- although there's still enough pain to cause it to sink in after a while...
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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Kirby
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Re: How to respond to this attack?
Dusk Eagle wrote:Yes, I struggled with these types of invasions when I was first learning the game. Then I got really good at using them on my father, which caused him to stop playing
Also, if you haven't found it yet, be sure to check out Sensei's Library. There's a lot of good material there for beginners.
It's cool that your father play(s/ed) go.
be immersed
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: How to respond to this attack?
He tried to learn at the same time I was learning, but gave it up before getting too far, saying something to the effect of his brain not being malleable enough at his age to understand the game.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Kirby
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Re: How to respond to this attack?
I think the others are correct that you should try to avoid the situation in the first place. But if you did get into the situation, I think that Araban's answer is good:
It might be useful to try to think of how to come up with this move. I think you need to read, incrementally, different possible moves to play until you find a "safe" one.
First you can start of thinking about how to respond very closely:
As you've observed, black can just connect at the marked spot, and you haven't accomplished much in terms of defense.
Then you can try considering one move further back:
Think of what black can do. You've probably noticed in this situation that black can keep running south:
or
So then try one move south once again:
What can black do?
Well, what if he tries to go south?
Now, it's hard to block without letting him go south, again. If you aggressively block, he can cut:
Well, that doesn't work well. What if you try to keep going south along with him?
Same problem. He keeps going south, and you can't cut him off.
So consider going one space further south, once again:
Well, now there's more space for him to do stuff in the marked area:
But at least you've cut him off from going "further south":
---
So, of course, it's best to avoid these situations altogether as others have said. But when you are in this situation, you must read.
Think of the most aggressive defense first. Does that work? If not, pull back a little, and read again. Does that work? If not, pull back a little, and read again.
Do this until you find a solution that works.
It might be useful to try to think of how to come up with this move. I think you need to read, incrementally, different possible moves to play until you find a "safe" one.
First you can start of thinking about how to respond very closely:
As you've observed, black can just connect at the marked spot, and you haven't accomplished much in terms of defense.
Then you can try considering one move further back:
Think of what black can do. You've probably noticed in this situation that black can keep running south:
or
So then try one move south once again:
What can black do?
Well, what if he tries to go south?
Now, it's hard to block without letting him go south, again. If you aggressively block, he can cut:
Well, that doesn't work well. What if you try to keep going south along with him?
Same problem. He keeps going south, and you can't cut him off.
So consider going one space further south, once again:
Well, now there's more space for him to do stuff in the marked area:
But at least you've cut him off from going "further south":
---
So, of course, it's best to avoid these situations altogether as others have said. But when you are in this situation, you must read.
Think of the most aggressive defense first. Does that work? If not, pull back a little, and read again. Does that work? If not, pull back a little, and read again.
Do this until you find a solution that works.
be immersed
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Bill Spight
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Re: How to respond to this attack?
Why am I seeing no diagrams in this thread? 
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Inkwolf
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Re: How to respond to this attack?
Wow, thanks for all the great answers, guys! 
I will try to watch my edges and not let the computer lure me into neglecting it to grab an easy capture or win a ko fight.
Lots of great solutions to try, and Kirby, you gave me lots to think about.
(Daniel, I started on 9x9 a month or so ago, and now play mostly 13x13, but am trying to graduate to full size, now that I can occasionally win. Usually, though, I'm just running around plugging holes in my defense like the Three Stooges in a leaky rowboat.)
I will try to watch my edges and not let the computer lure me into neglecting it to grab an easy capture or win a ko fight.
Lots of great solutions to try, and Kirby, you gave me lots to think about.
(Daniel, I started on 9x9 a month or so ago, and now play mostly 13x13, but am trying to graduate to full size, now that I can occasionally win. Usually, though, I'm just running around plugging holes in my defense like the Three Stooges in a leaky rowboat.)
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Kirby
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Re: How to respond to this attack?
Bill Spight wrote:Why am I seeing no diagrams in this thread?
What web browser are you using? If there's a problem with the diagrams, I can investigate it, provided I can reproduce the issue.
be immersed
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: How to respond to this attack?
Inkwolf wrote:(Daniel, I started on 9x9 a month or so ago, and now play mostly 13x13, but am trying to graduate to full size, now that I can occasionally win. Usually, though, I'm just running around plugging holes in my defense like the Three Stooges in a leaky rowboat.)
Getting stronger is mostly just finding more holes sooner.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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hyperpape
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Re: How to respond to this attack?
Well, if the ko is for the life of a group, you probably should let a move like this slide. If you're just talking about capturing a stone or two, then you should block.Inkwolf wrote:Wow, thanks for all the great answers, guys!
I will try to watch my edges and not let the computer lure me into neglecting it to grab an easy capture or win a ko fight.
Lots of great solutions to try, and Kirby, you gave me lots to think about.
(Daniel, I started on 9x9 a month or so ago, and now play mostly 13x13, but am trying to graduate to full size, now that I can occasionally win. Usually, though, I'm just running around plugging holes in my defense like the Three Stooges in a leaky rowboat.)