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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #141 Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:50 am 
Honinbo
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Hidden until the end-game,
For beginners:
robinz wrote:
so why not?
Because :w90: is sente :), or else B is dead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm90 :b91: tenuki
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . . .
$$ | . X O X . . . . .
$$ | . 1 X O O O . . .
$$ | . 3 X O X O . . .
$$ | . . 4 X X 5 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]
This sequence is a good idea because (a) and (b) are miai for W,
so W takes advantage in sente and can play tenuki after :w92::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm90
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . O . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . O X O O O O . .
$$ | . O X X . X X X .
$$ | . . X O X . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . . . .
$$ | . a . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . .
$$ | . O O . b . . . .
$$ | 3 B O X . . . . .
$$ | . 1 X O O O . . .
$$ | . 2 X O X O . . .
$$ | . . . X X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re:
Post #142 Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 4:57 am 
Oza
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EdLee wrote:
Hidden until the end-game,
For beginners:
robinz wrote:
so why not?
Because :w90: is sente :), or else B is dead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm90 :b91: tenuki
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . . .
$$ | . X O X . . . . .
$$ | . 1 X O O O . . .
$$ | . 3 X O X O . . .
$$ | . . 4 X X 5 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]
This sequence is a good idea because (a) and (b) are miai for W,
so W takes advantage in sente and can play tenuki after :w92::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm90
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . O . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . O X O O O O . .
$$ | . O X X . X X X .
$$ | . . X O X . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . . . .
$$ | . a . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . .
$$ | . O O . b . . . .
$$ | 3 B O X . . . . .
$$ | . 1 X O O O . . .
$$ | . 2 X O X O . . .
$$ | . . . X X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]


I am not sure that I agree. After W3 below, Black should push at B4. White can take away the corner eyes with W5 etc., but B8 destroys the White bottom territory. Black gets full value for the cutting stone, which will limit White's ability to respond here. Who has done better here?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . O . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . O X O O O O . .
$$ | . O X X . X X X .
$$ | . . X O X . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . . . .
$$ | . a . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . .
$$ | . O O . b . . . .
$$ | 3 B O X . . . . .
$$ | . 1 X O O O . . .
$$ | 7 2 X O X O 8 . .
$$ | . 5 6 X X 4 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]


If B4, W5, B6 does White have to connect (in which case W1 has become gote instead of the expected sente)? If White plays elsewhere with W7, the B8, B10 combo threatens a ko for life on the left with "a" or the destruction of the bottom territory while harassing White with some choice of "b".
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w7: tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . O . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . O X O O O O . .
$$ | . O X X . X X X .
$$ | . . X O X . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . . . .
$$ | . a . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . .
$$ | . O O . 0 . . . .
$$ | 3 B O X . . . b .
$$ | . 1 X O O O . . .
$$ | . 2 X O X O 9 8 .
$$ | . 6 . X X 4 5 b .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]


Is W1 here a better choice, relying on the miai situation for the left side White stones? If Black secures the corner with B2, White can test the situation with 3, which threatens to connect up the left side with "a" while also increasing the corner aji.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . O . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . O X O O O O . .
$$ | . O X X . X X X .
$$ | . . X O X . . . .
$$ | a . X X X . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | 3 . O . . X . . .
$$ | . O O . b . . . .
$$ | . X O X . . . . .
$$ | 2 . X O O O . . .
$$ | . . X O X O . . .
$$ | . . . X X 1 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]

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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Offline 1986
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #143 Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 2:12 pm 
Lives in gote
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It feels good to be back home I should be Abel to make more moves a day now give me a minute I'll post my next move
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Offline 1986
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #144 Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 3:23 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 502
Location: Coloradao USA
Liked others: 50
Was liked: 12
Rank: malk-5k
KGS: go1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm92 Prisoner Count :w1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | 1 O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This is going pretty much according to plan with my last sequence, lets see if he follows me around,
its looking bad for white right now, currently  im about 15 points behind, 

So now is a good time to start counting points to determine the value of my moves, i remeber reading some book 
where the endgame was played out perfect it was inspiring 

since im back home i should have more varitations and explinations for you guys, so we can get this baby going a liltte faster

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Offline EdLee
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Post #145 Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 5:13 pm 
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Hidden until lower left corner completely finished (including the end-game),
For beginners: here, just take is better:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . O . . X .
$$ | . O O . . . .
$$ | 1 B O X . . .
$$ | . O X O O O .
$$ | . X X O X O .
$$ | . . . X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------[/go]
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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #146 Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:28 am 
Lives in gote

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Rank: KGS 9k
KGS: robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm93 Prisoner Count :w1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 1 X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



Wow. I'm genuinely stunned. Surely capturing the stone was the only sensible move for white here? (Indeed, I ought to have offered a trigger, but I got lazy, and didn't want to because neither of us have done so yet in this game.) As I already said, after that I still needed a move to defend the corner (and had just about decided it would be this one at A3 - F2 was also somewhat tempting, but then white's block at G2 still seems to be sente), but now I get to make it in sente! (Well, it's not absolutely sente - the difference between white capturing my stone and me capturing his two is relatively small at this stage, but locally it is so.) If he captures now, I can now happily tenuki - that cut at E6 still looks pretty severe (and definitely sente), and then I can get M17 in sente, and then who knows, perhaps R2... *rubs hands in glee* :lol:

[I reserve the right to take back my glee when I find out what white's cunning plan is though :roll:]
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Offline EdLee
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Post #147 Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:40 am 
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robinz & 1986,
(For beginners also.) :b93: is one reason just taking was better than :w92:.
You can read Post #145 now.
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Offline 1986
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #148 Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 11:50 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

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Liked others: 50
Was liked: 12
Rank: malk-5k
KGS: go1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm94 Prisoner Count :w1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X 1 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


OK here's my thought process
forget those two stones for right now and block him from coming into my right side so easily

this is unacceptable 
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm94 Prisoner Count :w1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | 1 X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . 2 . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


but what about those that group if he takes those two stones that group is in danger,

eh, not really it still can live the only thing im concered with is move number 99 in this sequence, thats what im looking at

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm94 Prisoner Count :w1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . 6 . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O 5 4 . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | 2 X O X 3 . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X 1 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this is good for black also

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm94 Prisoner Count :w1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . 4 X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | 2 O O . 3 5 6 8 . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . X O X . . 7 . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X 1 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this is the best sequence for me

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm94 Prisoner Count :w1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . 5 7 9 . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 . 6 8 . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | 2 O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X 1 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


i have been thinking about playing p11 just to pick a fight
i really wanna see his respones maybe it could be usefull 


heres another variaion

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm94 Prisoner Count :w1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . 7 , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . 9 . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 6 . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | 2 O O . 5 4 . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X 1 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


i dont really like this either
hmmmmnn...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm94 Prisoner Count :w1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . 5 . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | 2 O O . 3 4 . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X 1 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


i got an idea i'll explain later
lets get the game moving

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #149 Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 1:35 pm 
Lives in sente
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1986:
If that point is so important to block, why did you not play there before? You must have known that Black could play the way he did. Now you lose 2 stones instead of 1. It is important to be consistent in a go game, particularly when its only just 1 move of thinking ahead.
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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #150 Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 4:03 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 414
Location: Durham, UK
Liked others: 96
Was liked: 15
Rank: KGS 9k
KGS: robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm95 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | 1 X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



Yet another surprising move from MHO. I had trouble deciding between this simple capture and the cut at E6. Playing the former, I expect white to play at E6 to connect his groups, then I get sente to play elsewhere (M17, almost certainly). Whereas, playing E6 now, I would expect white to capture at A5 himself - then, as far as I can read I need to play another move in the corner (looks like the hane at E1 kills, to me), but then white needs B8 (or similar) to save his own left-hand group, and once again I have sente. So the only question is which of the following results I prefer:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm95 Prisoner Count :w1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . 5 . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . 4 . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . 1 . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | 2 X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm95 Prisoner Count :w1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . 3 . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . 2 . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | 1 X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


There's no question that in the latter, which I've now played, I have more points. But in the former, which I came very close to playing, white's groups are cut apart, so I could hope in the longer term to be able to put more pressure on his F2 group this way. In other words, it would be a sacrifice of certain short-term gain for a possibly greater long term one. I decided in the end to just take the instant cash though, as I wouldn't be that confident of making all that many gains in the other scenario, and it also gives black virtually no more sente moves (or ko threats) against the corner, when there would have been several in the other scenario. Plus, if I'm taking sente into the next phase of the game, I start to feel ahead for the first time for a long while in this game, so keeping things simple and grabbing points seems the best option :)
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #151 Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 5:36 pm 
Oza
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robinz wrote:
Yet another surprising move from MHO. I had trouble deciding between this simple capture and the cut at E6. Playing the former, I expect white to play at E6 to connect his groups, then I get sente to play elsewhere (M17, almost certainly). Whereas, playing E6 now, I would expect white to capture at A5 himself - then, as far as I can read I need to play another move in the corner (looks like the hane at E1 kills, to me), but then white needs B8 (or similar) to save his own left-hand group, and once again I have sente. So the only question is which of the following results I prefer:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm95 Prisoner Count :w1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . 5 . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . 4 . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . 1 . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | 2 X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm95 Prisoner Count :w1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . 3 . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . 2 . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | 1 X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


There's no question that in the latter, which I've now played, I have more points. But in the former, which I came very close to playing, white's groups are cut apart, so I could hope in the longer term to be able to put more pressure on his F2 group this way. In other words, it would be a sacrifice of certain short-term gain for a possibly greater long term one. I decided in the end to just take the instant cash though, as I wouldn't be that confident of making all that many gains in the other scenario, and it also gives black virtually no more sente moves (or ko threats) against the corner, when there would have been several in the other scenario. Plus, if I'm taking sente into the next phase of the game, I start to feel ahead for the first time for a long while in this game, so keeping things simple and grabbing points seems the best option :)


Note that the situation is a little more complex than robinz's reading indicates. If Black chooses the E6 cut now, it is not "necessarily" sente. The earlier marked kikashi allows White to live against Black's direct attempt to kill. After 1-10 below the marked stone is perfectly placed to give White a snapback...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . 5 X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . 1 4 W 7 . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | 2 3 O . 6 X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O 9 X 0 a . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | O . O X 8 . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


However, White barely survives. As a result, Black may be able to force White to live in another way that helps Black invade the lower side later, e.g. start with the hanging connection at "a". It would all depend on the evaluation of the alternatives if White plays away here.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #152 Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 6:28 pm 
Honinbo
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1986,
(For beginners also.) Your feeling is the jump :b1::
1986 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . X X X . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . . .
$$ | W B O X . . . . .
$$ | O O X O O O . . .
$$ | X X X O X O . . .
$$ | . . . X X . 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]
This is bad because after :w2: :b3:, B has all these false eyes and later,
many connect-and-dies ending with (a):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . X X X . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . . .
$$ | O . O X . . . . .
$$ | O O X O O O . . .
$$ | X X X O X O . 4 .
$$ | . . a X X 2 1 . .
$$ | . . . . C 3 C . .
$$ +------------------[/go]
The correct shape for B is the simple push :b1:, and W blocks with :w2:, leaving B with the aji of (b) and (c):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . X X X . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . . .
$$ | O . O X . . . . .
$$ | O O X O O O . . .
$$ | X X X O X O c . .
$$ | . . . X X 1 2 b .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]
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Offline 1986
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #153 Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 11:29 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 502
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Liked others: 50
Was liked: 12
Rank: malk-5k
KGS: go1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm96 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . 1 . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Yeah, I agree Apehlion my play was inconsistent
i wasn't completely focused on my game, but im back home
and i got more time to devote to my go again,

Ed lee wow i didn't think of that, i learn something new everyday
:)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm96 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . 1 3 5 . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 2 4 X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm96 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 4 6 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . 1 . . . 2 . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . 9 8 . . . 3 . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm96 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 8 4 . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X 3 1 . 2 . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

_________________
standing still means going backwards
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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #154 Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:29 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 414
Location: Durham, UK
Liked others: 96
Was liked: 15
Rank: KGS 9k
KGS: robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm97 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . 1 . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The surprises keep coming :shock: I guess 1986 wasn't happy with me keeping sente for a while, and decided on a mutual damage strategy. This does give me another of those tricky (and in this case seemingly close) decisions - to respond or not to respond?

In the end I went with "no", and accepted some mutual damage, for a variety of reasons. Firstly, I think I actually get a few more points from killing his 5 stones on the left than he does from killing my 2 in the upper left (which I think is all he can do, even with another move there) - although this is again close, and I may have misjudged it. Secondly, my centre group has been hanging around for a while in an almost-but-not-quite alive state, and therefore could have been vulnerable to some sort of attack. But not now - with his left group cut off, I'm sure I can win any capturing race that might develop, so I won't have to worry much about it anymore. And this makes me feel much more comfortable with any later reduction of the lower area. Thirdly, had I responded to his latest move (and I couldn't see beyond H16 if I did so), he didn't have to do anything else there (indeed, I'm fairly confident sure his stone would just be dead if I responded, although it might have assisted in a reduction), but could have just left some aji and come back to defend the cut, when I'd be very slightly worse off than if he'd just defended the cut on his last move.

So, while I'm not 100% sure on all of these reasons, they do all seem to vaguely point in the same direction. I expect him now to play H15 or H16, and then I'm still tempted to go ahead with M17, although that will take some reading to check it's OK. I won't be able to rely on a nice large alive group on top anymore, but I'm pretty sure the other two stones (or 3, if I do play M17) can connect to my live group in the upper right.

My opponent has chosen to make this exciting, at least :D
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Offline 1986
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #155 Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 9:12 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 502
Location: Coloradao USA
Liked others: 50
Was liked: 12
Rank: malk-5k
KGS: go1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm98 Prisoner Count :w3: 
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



cool he didn't defend lets contiune

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm98 Prisoner Count :w3: 
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . 2 . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm98 Prisoner Count :w3: 
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O 2 . . 4 . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



i was thinking about playing here

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm98 Prisoner Count :w3: 
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O 3 5 . 1 . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 2 4 X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


but i dont like getting pushed down
and i rather spit the stones with my invasion and connect to the center group anyway

i can still play A8 to save those ugly badly managed stones
but that isn't really worth that much right now besides
its fighting time :)

i thought i was going to be out for the count but after playing with the stones a little bit more, i still got a good fighting chance to win

its amazing at how many mistakes you can make and still comeback

I love this game!

*lets get ready to rumble!* (WWF Voice)

_________________
standing still means going backwards
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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #156 Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 10:24 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 414
Location: Durham, UK
Liked others: 96
Was liked: 15
Rank: KGS 9k
KGS: robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm99 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . 1 . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


First, let's pause to note that 1986's last move was one I actually expected - I'm not sure when the last time was that that happened, but it's been a while :D

As for my move - well, I can't really tell if this is going to work well or not given the changed situation in the upper left, but I really do feel like trying it. I'm not sure if I have much of a lead, if I have one at all, and as in general I've done quite well in this game out of hand-to-hand fighting, I don't object to perhaps starting a little more ;-)

The alternative I considered was the jump to K14, which is undeniable big(ish), but it's also very definitely gote and lets white choose comfortably between big moves all over the board. I know I'm not entitled to keep sente forever, but I think I have a decent chance of at least claiming some of the top (or reducing white's claim to it) in sente.
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Offline 1986
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #157 Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 11:35 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 502
Location: Coloradao USA
Liked others: 50
Was liked: 12
Rank: malk-5k
KGS: go1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . 1 . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


i was orginally thinking k18
but this looks a little better
not to mention k18 its still open for later

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 5 . 8 . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X 9 O 3 O O O 7 |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . 1 . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this is pretty intersting
makes a pretty cool tsuemgo lol
i found 2 different ways to live here


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O 3 4 . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . 2 1 5 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . 6 . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this activates the aji of p11 

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O 6 . . X . O 3 O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 9 7 X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O 8 . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . 1 . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this looks pretty even to me

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standing still means going backwards
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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #158 Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 11:50 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 414
Location: Durham, UK
Liked others: 96
Was liked: 15
Rank: KGS 9k
KGS: robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm101 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


That is most definitely big. But it also ignored my threat. Out of self-respect, I simply must play this move now, whatever comes of it (it will certainly be messy :mrgreen:) - especially as I considered, but rejected, playing my last move where MHO has just played.
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Offline xDragon
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #159 Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 1:00 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 153
Location: around
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 47
Rank: 5k
KGS: xDragon
1986,
1986 wrote:
i can still play A8 to save those ugly badly managed stones
but that isn't really worth that much right now besides
its fighting time :)


could you show how A8 would save those stones?
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #160 Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 4:23 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
1986, Hidden until upper right corner settled,
1986 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm100
$$-----------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . 4 2 5 . 8 . |
$$. . . X 9 O 3 O O O 7 |
$$. X . . . . X X X O 6 |
$$. . . . X . . . X X . |
$$. 1 . . . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
No, :w4: is sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-----------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . 6 3 1 4 . . . |
$$. . . X . O 2 O O O . |
$$. X . . . . X X X O 5 |
$$. . . . X . . . X X . |
$$. W . . . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Let's see what happens in the game. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-----------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$. . . . . 3 1 4 . . . |
$$. . . X 5 O 2 O O O . |
$$. X . . . . X X X O . |
$$. . . . X . . . X X . |
$$. O . . . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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