This is the 15x15 game I just played against the computer...I was black.
Just thought it was of interest because, in spite of having two solid eyes, the black shape in the upper right corner is dead anyway. Didn't know that could happen.
Grr....
The Annoying Dead
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JarrodCL
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Re: The Annoying Dead
Hmm, there's no solid eyes there, unfortunately. That entire group only has one liberty, and when you take that solitary white stone, you'll still only have one liberty left...white then follows up with a single move to kill your group, as it can take that final liberty.
If that white group in the upper most right corner (surrounded by your black stones) had less liberties than the black group surrounding it, you'd be in a better position and should be able to live. Because it has two liberties though, and you only have one, your group is unfortunately dead.
Hope that makes sense! (And apologies if I'm telling you something you already know!)
If that white group in the upper most right corner (surrounded by your black stones) had less liberties than the black group surrounding it, you'd be in a better position and should be able to live. Because it has two liberties though, and you only have one, your group is unfortunately dead.
Hope that makes sense! (And apologies if I'm telling you something you already know!)
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CnP
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Re: The Annoying Dead
No in terms of eyes there's two eyes there as I understand the concept of eyes - not false eyes, if you took away the white stones inside it we'd say it was alive. It's just that Inkwolf assumed two eyes = unconditional life how ever many stones white plays inside and let the computer get an eye inside his big eye etc. btw Richard Hunter's Counting liberties, or his chapters in the 2nd book of Go would be the place to read a bit about this sort of thing.
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JarrodCL
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Re: The Annoying Dead
CnP wrote:if you took away the white stones inside it we'd say it was alive. It's just that Inkwolf assumed two eyes = unconditional life how ever many stones white plays inside and let the computer get an eye inside his big eye
Ahh, I see your point. My understanding of a double eye structure is one which is stable, rather than having the potential to be settled into two eyes. I don't know if there's a difference in terminology I'm not familiar with, but, that was the interpretation I was basing my explanation from.
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Numsgil
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Re: The Annoying Dead
A better way to think about it: there's a group with one eye in a capture race vs another group with one eye. If you have "The second book of Go", it has a few chapters explaining how to read these fights out (definitely worth a read. It was a really enlightening moment when I understood how these sorts of fights work).
If we collapse white's eye, it's a different type of fight altogether. In this case, no matter how many free moves white gets, he can't capture that black group.
This is even more fun:
If we collapse white's eye, it's a different type of fight altogether. In this case, no matter how many free moves white gets, he can't capture that black group.
This is even more fun:
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CnP
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Re: The Annoying Dead
Oh yes, thanks.A better way to think about it: there's a group with one eye in a capture race vs another group with one eye.
Neither black or white can make take the final, shared liberty, so
either a seki or black can squash white with:
and seki if white plays there. ?
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robinz
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Re: The Annoying Dead
Interesting debate. To me, this is just (as others have already said) a capturing race between two groups with 1 eye (and one which black is losing, just).
It might conceivably have arisen from a position in which black did have two solid eyes, but if so, they needed to not let white get so many plays in. In particular, letting your opponent make an eye of their own inside your eye (which, in practice, seems to only ever happen in the corner, although in theory it can happen in any large enough space) makes it to all intents and purposes not an eye anymore. Easy game, go
(This sensei's page has some related material:http://senseis.xmp.net/?path=EyesCollection&page=EyeInTheBelly - although in those examples white has no other eyes, so it's an eye-versus-no-eye capturing race, not an eye-vs-eye one as in your example.)
It might conceivably have arisen from a position in which black did have two solid eyes, but if so, they needed to not let white get so many plays in. In particular, letting your opponent make an eye of their own inside your eye (which, in practice, seems to only ever happen in the corner, although in theory it can happen in any large enough space) makes it to all intents and purposes not an eye anymore. Easy game, go
(This sensei's page has some related material:http://senseis.xmp.net/?path=EyesCollection&page=EyeInTheBelly - although in those examples white has no other eyes, so it's an eye-versus-no-eye capturing race, not an eye-vs-eye one as in your example.)
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EdLee
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Inkwolf
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Re:
EdLee wrote:Good lesson for you, Inkwolf. If you post the entire game here,Inkwolf wrote:Didn't know that could happen. Grr....
maybe people can figure out your mistake(s) that corner.
Yes, it was a good lesson. One I'm glad I got from the computer instead of another person, because I might have called them the same names I called the computer...
The game is probably too full of mistakes for anyone to narrow down just one spot where it went wrong. But if you really want to look, here's the SGF:
http://home.earthlink.net/~inkwolf/TheAnnoyingDead.sgf
The game as it ends there is just before I moved into the tiger's mouth from the peep at 07, and the computer made my entire formation disappear. (I hit 'undo' to figure out just what the heck had happened.)
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: The Annoying Dead
Inkwolf wrote:Just thought it was of interest because, in spite of having two solid eyes, the black shape in the upper right corner is dead anyway. Didn't know that could happen.
If this happened because white played
, you need to play 
to stay alive (white will capture, and then it is a seki). Ideally, you would have responded to an earlier white move. If the other player can make his own eye inside your eye, then it's not really your eye. 
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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EdLee
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A few shape problems:
(The SGF is correct, at 15x15, but I don't know how to tell the inline editor)
[sgf-full](;CA[utf-8]RU[Japanese]FF[4]AP[Goban:3.2.12]SZ[15]GM[1]DT[2011-05-16]PB[Colette Bezio]
BR[NR]PW[GNU Go]WR[NR]KM[6.5]HA[0]RE[W+53.5]US[Colette Bezio]MULTIGOGM[0]
;B[dl];W[cj];B[fm];W[bl];B[im];W[ej];B[lm];W[mk];B[nm];W[mh];B[me];W[kd];B[lc];W[kc]
(;B[kb]C[See var.];W[jb];B[lb];W[ic];B[ec];W[lf];B[cd];W[cg];B[cf];W[bg];B[bf];W[cm]
;B[gc];W[ie];B[dm];W[cn];B[dn];W[mf]
(;B[nf]LB[kb:a]C[This is the second time you make this shape -- first was (a). See var.]
;W[ng]
(;B[oe]C[Bad habit. See var.];W[gd];B[le];W[ke];B[hc];W[fd];B[fc];W[hj];B[hk];W[jj]
;B[jk];W[kk];B[kl];W[ll];B[jm];W[ik];B[jl];W[nl];B[mm];W[ml];B[ee];W[gf];B[eg];W[fh]
;B[dg];W[gk];B[hl];W[hb];B[gb];W[do];B[eo];W[co];B[fn];W[ch];B[dh];W[af];B[ae];W[ag]
;B[bd];W[di];B[fg];W[gg];B[ed];W[om];B[on];W[ol];B[nn];W[hd];B[og];W[oh];B[of];W[nb]
;B[nc];W[ld];B[md];W[ga];B[fa];W[gl];B[gm];W[ha];B[ff];W[ka];B[la];W[ja]C[This connect is sente.]
(;B[fe]C[You cannot tenuki. See var.];W[od]LB[oe:a][fe:b]C[This happened partly because you tenuki (b), but parly also because of the bad shape (a), go back and look at move 35.]
;B[ne];W[mb];B[mc];W[ob];B[oc];W[ma];B[ek];W[fj];B[fk];W[fl];B[el];W[gj];B[ck];W[bk]
;B[cl];W[ge];B[il];W[ij];B[eh];W[ei];B[dk];W[dj];B[ni];W[lj]
(;B[];TT[]W[]TB[aa][ab][ac][ad][ba][bb][bc][be][ca][cb][cc][ce][da][db][dc][dd]
[df][ea][eb][ef][em][en][fb][fo][gn][go][hm][hn][ho][io][jn][jo][km][kn][ko][ln]
[lo][mn][mo][no][oo][de][in]TW[lc][le][lg][lh][li][lk][mc][md][me][mg][mi][mj][na]
[nc][ci][ne][nf][nh][ni][nj][nk][oa][oc][oe][of][og][oi][oj][ok][ah][ai][aj][ak]
[al][am][an][ao][bh][bi][bj][bm][bn][bo][fi][gh][gi][he][hf][hg][hh][hi][ia][ib]
[id][if][ig][ih][ii][jc][nd][jd][je][jf][jg][jh][ji][kb][kf][kg][kh][ki][kj][la]
[lb])
(;B[nh];W[nd])
(;B[nd];W[nh];B[na];W[od])
(;B[nd];W[nh];B[];W[])
(;B[na];W[nd])
(;B[nh];W[nd]))
(;B[od]))
(;B[ne]C[Just connect.]))
(;B[ne]))
(;B[ld];W[ke];B[dd]))[/sgf-full]
(The SGF is correct, at 15x15, but I don't know how to tell the inline editor
)[sgf-full](;CA[utf-8]RU[Japanese]FF[4]AP[Goban:3.2.12]SZ[15]GM[1]DT[2011-05-16]PB[Colette Bezio]
BR[NR]PW[GNU Go]WR[NR]KM[6.5]HA[0]RE[W+53.5]US[Colette Bezio]MULTIGOGM[0]
;B[dl];W[cj];B[fm];W[bl];B[im];W[ej];B[lm];W[mk];B[nm];W[mh];B[me];W[kd];B[lc];W[kc]
(;B[kb]C[See var.];W[jb];B[lb];W[ic];B[ec];W[lf];B[cd];W[cg];B[cf];W[bg];B[bf];W[cm]
;B[gc];W[ie];B[dm];W[cn];B[dn];W[mf]
(;B[nf]LB[kb:a]C[This is the second time you make this shape -- first was (a). See var.]
;W[ng]
(;B[oe]C[Bad habit. See var.];W[gd];B[le];W[ke];B[hc];W[fd];B[fc];W[hj];B[hk];W[jj]
;B[jk];W[kk];B[kl];W[ll];B[jm];W[ik];B[jl];W[nl];B[mm];W[ml];B[ee];W[gf];B[eg];W[fh]
;B[dg];W[gk];B[hl];W[hb];B[gb];W[do];B[eo];W[co];B[fn];W[ch];B[dh];W[af];B[ae];W[ag]
;B[bd];W[di];B[fg];W[gg];B[ed];W[om];B[on];W[ol];B[nn];W[hd];B[og];W[oh];B[of];W[nb]
;B[nc];W[ld];B[md];W[ga];B[fa];W[gl];B[gm];W[ha];B[ff];W[ka];B[la];W[ja]C[This connect is sente.]
(;B[fe]C[You cannot tenuki. See var.];W[od]LB[oe:a][fe:b]C[This happened partly because you tenuki (b), but parly also because of the bad shape (a), go back and look at move 35.]
;B[ne];W[mb];B[mc];W[ob];B[oc];W[ma];B[ek];W[fj];B[fk];W[fl];B[el];W[gj];B[ck];W[bk]
;B[cl];W[ge];B[il];W[ij];B[eh];W[ei];B[dk];W[dj];B[ni];W[lj]
(;B[];TT[]W[]TB[aa][ab][ac][ad][ba][bb][bc][be][ca][cb][cc][ce][da][db][dc][dd]
[df][ea][eb][ef][em][en][fb][fo][gn][go][hm][hn][ho][io][jn][jo][km][kn][ko][ln]
[lo][mn][mo][no][oo][de][in]TW[lc][le][lg][lh][li][lk][mc][md][me][mg][mi][mj][na]
[nc][ci][ne][nf][nh][ni][nj][nk][oa][oc][oe][of][og][oi][oj][ok][ah][ai][aj][ak]
[al][am][an][ao][bh][bi][bj][bm][bn][bo][fi][gh][gi][he][hf][hg][hh][hi][ia][ib]
[id][if][ig][ih][ii][jc][nd][jd][je][jf][jg][jh][ji][kb][kf][kg][kh][ki][kj][la]
[lb])
(;B[nh];W[nd])
(;B[nd];W[nh];B[na];W[od])
(;B[nd];W[nh];B[];W[])
(;B[na];W[nd])
(;B[nh];W[nd]))
(;B[od]))
(;B[ne]C[Just connect.]))
(;B[ne]))
(;B[ld];W[ke];B[dd]))[/sgf-full]
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willemien
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Re: The Annoying Dead
daniel_the_smith wrote:Inkwolf wrote:Just thought it was of interest because, in spite of having two solid eyes, the black shape in the upper right corner is dead anyway. Didn't know that could happen.
If this happened because white played
Sorry it is even more complex
By capturing
Black gains an extra libery and therefore can atari with an 
Promotor and Librarian of Sensei's Library
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EdLee
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Re: The Annoying Dead
@EdLee: Oh, haha, I sorta skipped to the end of the thread and didn't see the sgf!
@willemien: Lol, I didn't notice that shape down there, of course you're right, it's not seki if black can get another liberty...
@willemien: Lol, I didn't notice that shape down there, of course you're right, it's not seki if black can get another liberty...
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: The Annoying Dead
At move 98, 3 things should be setting off alarms in your brain.
1) You have no outside liberties.
2) The marked stones have horrible shape. White has the vital point which you really want for yourself.
In other words, you should look at the corner and visually abstract this pattern out of the surrounding clutter:
...and it should set off an alarm.
3) He has a sente play against the lower part of your group, and you have bad shape there too:
The fact that he can play 'a', making a false eye of 'b', should set off a third alarm.
1) You have no outside liberties.
2) The marked stones have horrible shape. White has the vital point which you really want for yourself.
In other words, you should look at the corner and visually abstract this pattern out of the surrounding clutter:
...and it should set off an alarm.
3) He has a sente play against the lower part of your group, and you have bad shape there too:
The fact that he can play 'a', making a false eye of 'b', should set off a third alarm.
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