Amateur makes history

[John Fairbairn]

Putting this under "Professionals" may be questionable, but a 21-year-old Korean amateur now living in Japan has made history by making his way through to the finals of the Agon-Kiriyama Cup. On 19 May 2011 Kim Seong-chun beat Kato Atushi 8-dan in the final preliminary (there are three stages), having beaten Cho Chikun in the previous round.

This seems to make him the first amateur in Japan to have won through to the finals of an event, as opposed to being seeded. It has happened several times in China, and also in Korea, though.

For the avoidance of doubt, this is Kim Seong-chun and not the pro Kim Seung-chun. Thise who write Korean names the idiosyncratic way would usually make them both Kim Seungjun. The official but still ignored way would be either Kim Seong-jun or Gim Seong-jun for the amateur, depending on whether you follow the dispensation for surnames or not.

Edit: My fault for trying to post quickly while rushing to catch a train. The amateur in question is Kim Seong-chin 金成進. That perhaps makes a nonsense of my "avoidance of doubt" remark, but actually the principle implied there still applies.

[gogameguru]

Thanks John,

Very interesting news. The gap between pros and top amateurs seems to be getting very small.

Standardising the naming of Korean pros is something I've been wondering about for awhile and I have thought of asking your opinion. Perhaps we could start a new thread to discuss it please, if you're interested?

[John Fairbairn]

Standardising the naming of Korean pros is something I've been wondering about for awhile and I have thought of asking your opinion. Perhaps we could start a new thread to discuss it please, if you're interested?

There are no easy answers to this. The worst case I think I have seen is Cheong Su-hyeon. I have seen Jeong Soohyun, Jeong Suhyeon, Jong Soohyun, Chung Soohyun and, incorrectly, Jang Soohyun and Seong Suhyeon in western sources. Not to mention older Japanese Tei Jugen but they now attempt varying transliterations instead, and the fact that Chinese make up varying character forms.

I have described all the problems at great length on the GoGoD CD. Having been an adviser on Oriental names to a national police database, I am familiar with many of the problems. But finding a solution is tough.

My experience is that McCune-Reischauer, although showing its age and looking ugly, is the best compromise as regards good pronunciation (Yi Ch'ang-ho instead of non-existent Lee Changho), is by far the best as regards conversion to hangeul, and has the benefit of being used by western scholars and libraries.

The new official system was intended for tourists but exempts names, and is ignored and/or reviled by ordinary Koreans, so is no good for our purpose.

I'm happy to discuss it, but not to repeat here arguments I've already made at length elsewhere. Too busy busy! But SL already contains the standardised list of name used by GoGoD.

[Kirby]

I think that I've argued about this in the past, but I have a slightly different opinion than John regarding the naming issue.  I agree that McCune-Reischauer is probably better than many attempts to transcribe Korean pronunciation.  I also agree that standards are important for aiding in someone's understanding of the pronunciation.  

Where my perspective probably differs, however, is that if someone has a particular way that they like to spell their name, I will try to honor that.  For example, I have no idea how Lee Changho likes to transcribe his name, but in this particular case, my wife's maden name is the same - "이".  When writing her name in English, she uses "Lee".  So, I have no problem using the same spelling for Lee Changho.  If Lee Changho came up to me and said, "Hey!  I would rather you spelled my name as, 'Eeeeyh Tchahng-Houe'", then I would be happy to honor his request.

In cases where I have no idea about someone's preference, then I think that McCune-Reischauer is a good way to go.
I suppose I have the same feeling toward English names, too.  I met a kid that spelled his name, "Maxx", instead of the "Max" that I'm used to.  Though I don't understand the reasoning behind adding a second "x" to the name, that's the way he spells his name - so I'll respect that.

My name is Brian.  If someone spells their name as "Bryan", and I think that it's a bad way to spell it...  Well, I don't try to force them to spell it the way that I like.

[John Fairbairn]

My name is Brian. If someone spells their name as "Bryan", and I think that it's a bad way to spell it... Well, I don't try to force them to spell it the way that I like.

Maybe that's dodging the issue a little. What if someone spells your name Bryan. Would you force them to re-write it?

I've had this problem a lot. My name is unfamiliar to lots of people in southern England - shouldn't be but it is. I have years of experience of turning up at press conferences and giving my name, only to see the pretty young things (I'm afraid they are always pretty young things in the sexist world of PR) write down, say, Fairchild, Fairburn, Fairbrother or Fairweather. As these examples show, they are almost certainly not mishearing, but simply showing they don't know how to spell my name and so take compromise with a name they do know (a queue for registration at a press event is often long and busy, so they don't want to get bogged down in spelling names out. Other people with unusual names have the same problem.). Normally I'd accept whatever is written on the namecard and rush off to the champagne buffet. But occasionally, where security is involved, I'd insist on the proper spelling.

I was always struck by the consternation this caused. They just couldn't get a handle on the pronunciation of the second half. But in the far north of England, where I come from, not only is it a normal name (indeed, in the border town of Berwick almost every shop seems to owned by a Fairbairn), but we use bairn as an everyday word for child. I often have the same difficulty in the USA, though there they are much more gracious and actually tend to ask how to pronounce my name - before looking baffled. I haven't this problem in Canada, though, perhaps because the Caledonian presence is strong there.

However, neither Kirby's situation nor mine is at all relevant to a go database. There we are not mis-spelling a name. We are transliterating, and doing so for a (sort of) scientific purpose. We can't and shouldn't worry about individual preferences which would muck up indexing and searches. In GoGoD, however, we do also record the individual preferences where known. They just don't count as the main entry.

[Kirby]

Sure, John.
I can't say I really disagree much with anything you've said.

I still have no problem using "Lee Changho" for posting in this community. If I were to make a searchable database like GoGoD and could only use one name as a key, using a more phonetically consistent name would work, I think.

I suppose in an ideal world, you could have multiple keys for the same entity - maybe how google searches correct for bad spellings (seems you do this to some extent). This way you could use multiple references to reach a wider audience.

However, it's of course likely to be infeasible to meet everyone's preferences.

[ethanb]

My name is unfamiliar to lots of people in southern England - shouldn't be but it is. I have years of experience of turning up at press conferences and giving my name, only to see the pretty young things (I'm afraid they are always pretty young things in the sexist world of PR) write down, say, Fairchild

Wow, that's far off from the actual sound - in that case I'd wonder if they did indeed know the word, but had some kind of short-circuit on the way from the ear to the hand.

"Why yes, a bonny wee bairn - how do you spell it again? Oh yes, C-H-I-L-D."

Edit: ah, I just re-read your post, and I misunderstood you the first time; you assumed they knew the word but didn't know how to spell it. I tend to (try to) be optimistic on individuals' motivations in general (and I've lots of experience with the wrong word coming out of my mouth/fingers) but taking the long queues into account, your scenario seems quite likely too.

[crux]

I often have the same difficulty in the USA, though there they are much more gracious and actually tend to ask how to pronounce my name - before looking baffled.

So how do you pronounce it? Apparently whatever I was imagining isn't correct.

[John Fairbairn]

So how do you pronounce it? Apparently whatever I was imagining isn't correct.

It's not one of those mysterious ones like Chumley for Cholmondley or Mannering for Mainwaring or Fanshaw for Featherstonehaugh, and certainly not an affectation like Sissil for Cecil. In fact I see nothing odd about it at all. If you say the bairn bit the same way as fair (but put the stress on the fair), I think you are there.

However, the name also gives problems to the Japanese. They invariably write it so that it sounds like Fairbane. Sometimes I take them to task and ask them to pronounce a name I write down in kana as fe-a-be-an. They do and I tell them that that pronunciation sounds exactly right to me. Both sides are then happy but totally unconvinced by the other.

There is a similar sort of problem with Korean. Take the word baduk. If you are a native English speaker and you hear a Korean speaker say the word, the odds are that you would want to write down paduk. For that reason the McCune-Reischauer and several other systems have transliterated the initial sound as p (the new system uses b). The trouble is that when in turn you say the word, if you say paduk it doesn't sound right to a Korean. However, if you, somewhat against your instincts, say baduk, it will not sound quite right to him but will be close enough to get a cigar. He may even beam back and say (to your ears), "Ah yes, paduk!" To which you may be tempted to say, "No, no, baduk" and end up in a Monty Pythonesque Ted Barrot sketch.

[John Fairbairn]

Another Japan-based Korean amateur has reached the finals (the last 16) of the Agon-Kiriyama Cup. Ha Seong-pong beat Furuya Yutaka 8-dan to secure his place alongside Kim Seong-chin. Furuya admitted he was trounced.

Kim will play Iyama Yuta in Round 1. Ha's opponent will be Mizokami Tomochika.

Kim (21) and Ha (29) met each other last year in the challengers' final of Japan's Amateur Meijin. Ha won through, but Tsuneishi Takashi (now a pro) beat him in the title match.

Ha is really on the borderline of being an amateur. Although he has appeared in the World Amateur, he works as a go instructor.

[palapiku]

Are these amateurs ex-insei?

[azrael]

From what I heard about Korean inseis is that they are capable of beating even the top pros in Korea (who are very strong indeed). So it won't be surprised that the odd one/two will string together a winning run, make it to the final of a Go competition and perhaps even winning it. Statistically it is possible. I am surprised that it hasn't happened sooner.

I think the gap between amateurs and pros can only be determined by how often this happens (i.e strong pros getting knocked out by amateur, by strong pro, I mean 7p+). In strictest sense the difference between a pro and amateur is not playing strength but the ability to make enough money to live. A pro will make enough money from competitions, Tv appearances, books etc so they do not need another source or income. An amateur does not make any money or insignificant amount and is playing the game purely for entertainment/enjoyment. Someone one in between, i.e. make some money but not enough to live on, could be termed a semi-pro.

[ez4u]

Another Japan-based Korean amateur has reached the finals (the last 16) of the Agon-Kiriyama Cup. Ha Seong-pong beat Furuya Yutaka 8-dan to secure his place alongside Kim Seong-chin. Furuya admitted he was trounced.

Kim will play Iyama Yuta in Round 1. Ha's opponent will be Mizokami Tomochika.

Kim (21) and Ha (29) met each other last year in the challengers' final of Japan's Amateur Meijin. Ha won through, but Tsuneishi Takashi (now a pro) beat him in the title match.

Ha is really on the borderline of being an amateur. Although he has appeared in the World Amateur, he works as a go instructor.

Ha beat Mizokami on June 23rd to advance the quarterfinals. His next opponent is the winner of the game between Takao Shinji and Yamashita Keigo, which is not yet scheduled.

[Bill Spight]

There is a similar sort of problem with Korean. Take the word baduk. If you are a native English speaker and you hear a Korean speaker say the word, the odds are that you would want to write down paduk. For that reason the McCune-Reischauer and several other systems have transliterated the initial sound as p (the new system uses b). The trouble is that when in turn you say the word, if you say paduk it doesn't sound right to a Korean. However, if you, somewhat against your instincts, say baduk, it will not sound quite right to him but will be close enough to get a cigar. He may even beam back and say (to your ears), "Ah yes, paduk!" To which you may be tempted to say, "No, no, baduk" and end up in a Monty Pythonesque Ted Barrot sketch.

He's not Ted, he's Reston.

[Joaz Banbeck]

Can't they just be numbered? I have an AGA number. I have a L19 membership number. I suspect that Asian organizations at some point use a number in ther membership lists. Can't we refer to Hankuk Kiwon #123 or Zhongguo Qiyuan #1234, etc?