22. Araban (5d) vs. zinger (1d)

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Kirby
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Kirby »

Bill Spight wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Is F3 better than C6 as an approach move for white? I would have probably played C6, because F3 seems too close to white's influence here.

Perhaps there's something I can learn from this. Could someone elaborate?


I think that C-06 is generally better. It isn't so much that F-03 is too close to White's thickness. After all, it is a 4 space extension. But, assuming that Black replies with F-03 or so, his further prospects on the bottom side are limited.


Thanks, Bill. I can see that. Maybe I call stuff influence too much instead of gathering rational explanations for moves.
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Solomon
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by zinger »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The right side looks unimportant, so if white wants to play the standard joseki that ends poking his head out at R14, I will be happy.
Last edited by zinger on Thu May 06, 2010 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
1 : something causing or meant to cause interest, surprise, or shock
2 : a pointed witty remark or retort
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Magicwand »

Bill Spight wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Is F3 better than C6 as an approach move for white? I would have probably played C6, because F3 seems too close to white's influence here.

Perhaps there's something I can learn from this. Could someone elaborate?


I think that C-06 is generally better. It isn't so much that F-03 is too close to White's thickness. After all, it is a 4 space extension. But, assuming that Black replies with F-03 or so, his further prospects on the bottom side are limited.


i might play F4 in this situation. i think that is something to think about.
i like it better than c6.
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Solomon
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . W . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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zinger
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by zinger »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c No good
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Whatever happens, I don't want to let white enclose me with 2. So it seems my options are to play 2 myself, or maybe a, or cut. Can I cut?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This doesn't look too bad.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 O . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 2 1 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O 5 6 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This doesn't look too bad cont.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 2 O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The white corner looks big, but there may be a little aji there. Also black gets some strength to balance white's in the bottom right, so the 5-5 stone will be hard to use.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Still OK
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 O 8 6 9 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 2 1 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O 5 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Just fine
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 2 1 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O 5 7 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Hmmm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 5 6 8 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O 1 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

What happens if I don't cut?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c I don't like this
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 2 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Putting white on the run doesn't help me, since white has thickness, plus this helps him get work from the 5-5 stone.

So I guess cut it is.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 2 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
1 : something causing or meant to cause interest, surprise, or shock
2 : a pointed witty remark or retort
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Kirby
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Kirby »

Magicwand wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Is F3 better than C6 as an approach move for white? I would have probably played C6, because F3 seems too close to white's influence here.

Perhaps there's something I can learn from this. Could someone elaborate?


I think that C-06 is generally better. It isn't so much that F-03 is too close to White's thickness. After all, it is a 4 space extension. But, assuming that Black replies with F-03 or so, his further prospects on the bottom side are limited.


i might play F4 in this situation. i think that is something to think about.
i like it better than c6.


Just your feeling, or do you have a reason?
be immersed
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Solomon
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X W X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by zinger »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I wonder what he has in mind. Surely he was prepared for the cut when he played the knight move.
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by SpongeBob »

For zinger:

I guess you decided agaist the double atari at P17 because you are going for influence to counter white's influence, right?
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by zinger »

For Spongebob:

SpongeBob wrote:For zinger:

I guess you decided agaist the double atari at P17 because you are going for influence to counter white's influence, right?


Yes. Also allowing white a ponnuki there feels very bad.
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O X W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Trigger:
O14 -> Q17


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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by zinger »

Trigger accepted, and additional offered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O X O 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He's actually following one of my read-out lines. Go figure.

One thing I think really distinguishes stronger players, is that their evaluation of a position is superior. Here what I expected is playing out - but maybe Solomon's judgement on the the result is superior. We'll see.
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Magicwand »

if sol didnt play 5-5 point we would be in better shape.
i dont know why anyone is willing to play 5-5 point.
it is in joseki book but it doent belong there in my opinion.
there is a reason why professinals dont play such move.
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
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