123 Tryphon vs Perceval

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Marcus
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Re: 123 Tryphon vs Perceval

Post by Marcus »

I agree with Aphelion. I would have been tempted, as White, to play as below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm6
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . 1 . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


Or one of the many other variations after :w6: ... but that's just my preference.
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perceval
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Re: 123 Tryphon vs Perceval

Post by perceval »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 No prisonners
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . 1 . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]

i learned a bit thanks to dailyjoseki.com (free ad ) about the josekis starting at a and i was tempted to give them a try but here the natural move at c really seems ok as the top is not that valuable
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . a b O . . c . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Tryphon
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Re: 123 Tryphon vs Perceval

Post by Tryphon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm10
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


Since I like moyo games, and his opening seems leading towards that (isn't it chinese opening ?), had I been him, I'd play something like this :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm9
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 1 . O 3 . 2 . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 5 . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


But with what he played, I have no choice but finish the simplest joseki of the world.

I now wait for an approach of the bottom left corner.

The least I can say is that I feel low, but so far, IIRC, I'm playing the same moves that Cho Chi Kun played against Fujisawa Shuko in the last of the 7th game of the Kisei he won (I know this game because he's commented in Pierre Aroutcheff's book "Perfectionnement au Go" and it's the only double san-san game by pro I've seen).

Okay, I'm no Cho-Chi-Kun but he's no Shuko. That must be playable...
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perceval
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Re: 123 Tryphon vs Perceval

Post by perceval »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 No prisonners
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]

my main source of knowledge for the chinese is the excellent serie from charles mattews at gobase, and he gives almost this position (with the W stones on the hosi instead of the san-san which should be good for me) in his example of W approaching the 4-4 stone.
He then explain than taking :b11: instead of enclosing the corneris the chinese idea: build the bottom and (almost ) force W to invade by making and approach of the bottom right corner.
in fact in a lot of my games against 8-10k W does not invade and i have a good position if i manage to enclose the corner after playing 1 here. On the other hand if i enclose and W takes the bottom side hoshi i am squashed to one side of the board.

but i expect that given his 2 san-san stones tryphon will think the left side unimportant and indeed approach the corner. then i'll extend the bottom while harassing the approach stone, chinese-style
I considered moving :b11: 1 to the left or right to adjust to his stone being on 3-3 but finally i think that the important thing here is the relation with my own Q3,K9 stones so i keep it on the middle.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Tryphon
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Re: 123 Tryphon vs Perceval

Post by Tryphon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm12
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


End of Cho vs. Shuko :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . .|
$$ | . . . , . a a a . 1 . . d . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . a a a . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


- First idea : extension. It threatens an invasion towards d, so B is likely to answer. Two problems : sooner or later, I'll have to invade the right, and letting him reinforce will make this more difficult. OTOH, premature invasion is a pain in the neck. But I feel it'll be still possible.
Other problem : where to extend ? 2nd line seems out of question, he'll cap and make a moyo. And how far ? 2 spaces seems too close from a sansan, 4 spaces will help more a future invasion on the right but has too much weakness related to sansan.

- Second idea : establish a formation at b. I have the feeling that a stone at b would be, as said Bill Spight in another thread, neither here nor here. Too far from sansan to make anything. Maybe I'm mistaken.

- Third idea : invade at c or d. That's really tempting, but I think it's premature.

- Fourth idea : extend towards e. It's gote, but it'll make a further play at b good. He'll have time to reinforce the bottom, either towards a (but I'll have space to invade at c) or c (I'll extend towards a to threaten the invasion) or d (I think c is still playable). I think also about others invasions.

I strongly hesitate between a and e...

You'll notice that I don't know much about the fuseki I try (except the fact I knew about the Cho-Shuko game, I don't have a fuseki book, and I follow Takemiya's advice : "play the moves that warms your heart", I try to think about it, so don't hesitate to criticize my thoughts.

Go for e !
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perceval
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Re: 123 Tryphon vs Perceval

Post by perceval »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 No prisonners
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


This occurs frequently in my games with the chinese : either my opponent approach immediatly Q3 or not at all.
then at some point the good move is to enclose ... but not too soon...
maybe it is too soon I will be very interested on the opinion of obvservers ? i have played several games with a similar B setup and sometimes i played tengen here instad of enclosing (i wonder what is best ?) on KGS so i feel on familiar ground (but still not sure its good)

I feel like my formation here is more efficient that W formation: i have a lot of places to enter his framework thanks to the dual san-san .
We are heading towards a game of opposing framewroks and i think that those 2 san-san are not well suited for that
Next i am considering playing around tengen if he take it i will separe the left probably.
He might invade the upper right now but then i think i get a big gain on the bottom right.

I played a lot of moves on the same side but again, his play reduce the values of the other sides IMHO
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Tryphon
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Re: 123 Tryphon vs Perceval

Post by Tryphon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm14
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . c . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . b . . X . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]

His moyo is starting to take shape.

Here my 3 considered moves :
a : I love this move. It'll have impact on an invasion on both top and left sides, and it begins to look for altitude. More, if B play a, it'll be painful. But it's gote. A quadruple purpose move, must be good :)

b : the move I hesitated with before. With B last move in place, I suppose B would not fear an invasion next, and simply tobi up.

c : classical reduction move. I feel it becomes urgent, but it must be gote, and I really want a.

So a :)
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perceval
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Re: 123 Tryphon vs Perceval

Post by perceval »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 No prisonners
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]

wtf? :w14: can t be good : if he had started with thw hoshi he would never have played the sans-san to follow.
I was becoming worried that my own :b13: was too slow but this is even slower.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 No prisonners
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . .|
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . b . . . . c . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]

I considered a,b ,c ,d.
of course W can still barely invade at one of the 2 e, but i would get a lot of cash attacking those. if i add one more move in my framework such as c , i mus commit to kill his invasion i think, i am not sure ican manage.
b is pleasing because it extends my moyo to the outmost, d is at the separatio line.
but the, he add played 4 mve on the right and i still have roome for a @ space extension on either side: this split would have been ok at the start with @ hoshi ie 2 W moves, with 4 W moves it has to be even better (considering that the extra moves will not help him take profit on my future right group.)
as for the other points, he cant take them all at once
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: 123 Tryphon vs Perceval

Post by robinz »

I'd be interested to hear what stronger players think - especially as I have little experience in playing the first corner move at the 3-3 - but my initial reaction was the same as perceval's; 4-4 looks a very strange follow up.
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Mnemonic
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Re: 123 Tryphon vs Perceval

Post by Mnemonic »

I may not be a strong player robinz, but this is my take.
First: my prediction
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 No prisonners
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 3 6 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . 9 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]

I think black has an easy time with this fuseki. Not game breaking but I think white is behind. First of I would not have allowed the K4 extension, but this might be a stylistic choice since up to that point the position has appeared in pro games. But to not invade after K4 was the first mistake of the game. As far as I know it is the standard (only?) pro response and will be played immediately. Black now has a very good framework with a lot of cash in the corner (I say very good because R9 looks slightly out of place)
But D16? I'm sorry but this is a clear mistake. And not a theoretical one like the one discussed before. I think this move really tipped the game in blacks favor (and not just on the theoretical level)
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
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Re: 123 Tryphon vs Perceval

Post by Tryphon »

Ah, comments ! I'm eager to read them.

For now, my move :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]

At first sight, I wanted to tenuki. After all, he threatens nothing.

But if I attack, there's two options. The first is the one played. I see something like that :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . X . . .|
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


Next, a is good for both.

The second, attack from the bottom, doesn't seem to give good follow-up :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 2 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


There's not much to do with the bottom group.

I know you're supposed to attack from the weak side, but none is really weak (that was the aim of the sansan after all).
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Mnemonic
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Re: 123 Tryphon vs Perceval

Post by Mnemonic »

I feel this is completely the wrong direction. Now the top 33 is clearly misplaced. Also, in this variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . X . . .|
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]

:w18: is considered almost always a mistake. Black strengthens himself while white still leaves an invasion point. Black might be slightly overconcentrated, but remember that white has a stone at C13. If blacks extension was a 3-space one, he would want to add another stone. You also provide black with another 4th line stone and with more influence than in my variation. This can't be good for white in this situation.

@stronger players: Please rip anything that I say apart. I have a weird psychological disorder where I think I could teach somebody something (anything?) about go.
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Re: 123 Tryphon vs Perceval

Post by Redundant »

@Mnemonic
Good analysis. I too think white played on the wrong side. If this variation is played, black would still be under pressure due to the presence of white's 4-4 stone. The bottom left has good shape now, and white can aim for a double wing formation by playing around a. b,c, and d also look interesting for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 2 . b . . . . . . . . d . X . . .|
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . a . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]
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perceval
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Re: 123 Tryphon vs Perceval

Post by perceval »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 No prisonners
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


comments, juicy comments, we are not alone :clap:
on the other hand it might be a bad thing for *someone* :-?
but really i believe tryphon is making some mistakes here.
I wasnt a fan of its 4-4 but after playing :b15: at c11 i had some regrets because if he had checked form below his formation on the bottom would have been perfect.
now my natural 2-space extension comes as a good approach of his 4 line stone (i have plenty of room to slide under for eyes if doesnot kick me-- but kicking me would strengthen me)+ the bottom look cramped.
Still, not sure if my :b15: was good as it will live small and he will get sente but things could have been worse


EDIT: added the obvious trigger if you want tryphon
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Re: 123 Tryphon vs Perceval

Post by Tryphon »

I'm afraid they are for me :-?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm18
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]



Just after playing my last move, I got convinced that after all, attack from the bottom was better to develop the top. Never mind.

So, what to do now ? I want to keep his invasion weak to force him to flee. I have two objectives : develop the top, and attack the K4 stone. For that, I considered :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm17
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . .|
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . b a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . c . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . .|
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


These 3 moves have the same meaning, he can get an eye in gote. I can't really choose between the 3. I like c

Strangely, the move ill placed is D6, that I played high to keep the high low balance. I sometimes ask myself about the pertinence of this principle.
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