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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Capture go problem
Post #1 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:39 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ -----------
$$ | X . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X |
$$ | X O X O X |
$$ | O O O O O |
$$ | O . . O . |
$$ -----------[/go]


Easy, but, I think, instructive. :)

Edit:

Capture go.

Passing is not allowed. The first player to capture a stone wins.

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Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #2 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:56 am 
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Pass? I don't really get it...

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Offline Li Kao
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #3 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:02 am 
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@Kirby
I think you can't pass in capture go. So the point of this problem is to force your opponent to fill his eyes first. But I can't find a good ruleset for capture go atm.
Image

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Last edited by Li Kao on Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This post by Li Kao was liked by: flOvermind
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #4 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:04 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ -----------
$$ | X . 1 3 . |
$$ | X X X X X |
$$ | X O X O X |
$$ | O O O O O |
$$ | O . 2 O . |
$$ -----------[/go]


...and white is forced to play self atari?

Maybe Bill is trying to demonstrate how capture go could evolve into regular go?

Or maybe I'm missing the point completely...

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Offline Koroviev
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #5 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:06 am 
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Could you explain rules, Bill? I find various different ones online.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #6 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:06 am 
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Li Kao wrote:
@Kirby
I think you can't pass in capture go. So the point of this problem is to force your opponent to fill his eyes first. But I can't find a good ruleset for capture go atm.


Ah, thanks, Li Kao. I wasn't thinking of "capture go", the game. For some reason, I was assuming that this was "regular go".

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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #7 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:02 am 
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daniel_the_smith wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ -----------
$$ | X . 1 3 . |
$$ | X X X X X |
$$ | X O X O X |
$$ | O O O O O |
$$ | O . 2 O . |
$$ -----------[/go]


...and white is forced to play self atari?

Maybe Bill is trying to demonstrate how capture go could evolve into regular go?

Or maybe I'm missing the point completely...


Right answer. But you are missing the point. Consider wrong answers. :)

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #8 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:04 am 
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Koroviev wrote:
Could you explain rules, Bill? I find various different ones online.


Sorry. I have edited the problem to show where the rules differ from regular go.

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— Winona Adkins

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Offline daal
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #9 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:28 am 
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black needs to make two eyes to win?

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This post by daal was liked by: Bill Spight
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Offline Li Kao
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #10 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:28 am 
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If you just need to capture a single stone the problem looks pretty pointless.
There are three first moves.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ The three moves
$$ -----------
$$ | X b c c b |
$$ | X X X X X |
$$ | X O X O X |
$$ | O O O O O |
$$ | O a a O . |
$$ -----------[/go]


a) is selfatari
b) leads to a 3 point eye which once white jumps into its middle forces a self atari
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Fail - now all allowed moves are self atari
$$ -----------
$$ | X 1 . 2 . |
$$ | X X X X X |
$$ | X O X O X |
$$ | O O O O O |
$$ | O . . O . |
$$ -----------[/go]

c) daniel's sequence which works. White can't deviate at move 2 since all other moves are self atari.

I really don't see your point.

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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #11 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:29 am 
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Li Kao wrote:
If you just need to capture a single stone the problem looks pretty pointless.
There are three first moves.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ The three moves
$$ -----------
$$ | X b c c b |
$$ | X X X X X |
$$ | X O X O X |
$$ | O O O O O |
$$ | O a a O . |
$$ -----------[/go]


a) is selfatari
b) leads to a 3 point eye which once white jumps into its middle forces a self atari
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Fail - now all allowed moves are self atari
$$ -----------
$$ | X 1 . 2 . |
$$ | X X X X X |
$$ | X O X O X |
$$ | O O O O O |
$$ | O . . O . |
$$ -----------[/go]

c) daniel's sequence which works. White can't deviate at move 2 since all other moves are self atari.

I really don't see your point.


The point is the seki in variation b). Even though you don't need two eyes to live in capture go, you may need two eyes to avoid seki. :)

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— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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Offline Li Kao
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #12 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:27 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Li Kao wrote:
b) leads to a 3 point eye which once white jumps into its middle forces a self atari
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Fail - now all allowed moves are self atari
$$ -----------
$$ | X 1 . 2 . |
$$ | X X X X X |
$$ | X O X O X |
$$ | O O O O O |
$$ | O . . O . |
$$ -----------[/go]


The point is the seki in variation b). Even though you don't need two eyes to live in capture go, you may need two eyes to avoid seki. :)

How is that a seki? It's black to move. He may not pass. So he will need to play a self-atari and lose one white's next turn.

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Offline palapiku
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #13 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:27 pm 
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The term "seki" only makes sense when passing is allowed. So does the word "alive", for that matter.
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #14 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:00 pm 
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I think seki makes sense without passes. It means that the first player to play locally gets a poor result, somehow. In this case there's nowhere else to play, so black just loses.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #15 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:08 pm 
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Li Kao wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Li Kao wrote:
b) leads to a 3 point eye which once white jumps into its middle forces a self atari
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Fail - now all allowed moves are self atari
$$ -----------
$$ | X 1 . 2 . |
$$ | X X X X X |
$$ | X O X O X |
$$ | O O O O O |
$$ | O . . O . |
$$ -----------[/go]


The point is the seki in variation b). Even though you don't need two eyes to live in capture go, you may need two eyes to avoid seki. :)

How is that a seki? It's black to move. He may not pass. So he will need to play a self-atari and lose one white's next turn.


The top region is seki. Neither side may approach the other. :)

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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Offline mitsun
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #16 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:18 pm 
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I agree that seki is a misleading concept in capture go. In chess and maybe other games the German term "zugzwang" is used for this situation.

By the way, what happens if both sides make two one-point eyes and fill all dame, so that there are no legal moves left? Is the game a draw, or does the next player lose?
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #17 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:40 pm 
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mitsun wrote:
I agree that seki is a misleading concept in capture go. In chess and maybe other games the German term "zugzwang" is used for this situation.


Well, seki can be used as a ko threat in regular go, but there are no kos in capture go (capture-1, anyway). Otherwise, in a regular seki the player to move will suffer a loss. (There are other standoff situations in regular go that are not seki, such as three-points-without-capturing.)

Quote:
By the way, what happens if both sides make two one-point eyes and fill all dame, so that there are no legal moves left? Is the game a draw, or does the next player lose?


It is legal to fill your own eye. But yes, there are possible positions in capture go where a player may not have a move. I would call such a position a loss for that player.

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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Offline RobertJasiek
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #18 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:00 pm 
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palapiku wrote:
The term "seki" only makes sense when passing is allowed.


As Tang Rules show, seki makes sense also without passes.
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=4005
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Offline ChradH
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #19 Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:15 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
palapiku wrote:
The term "seki" only makes sense when passing is allowed.


As Tang Rules show, seki makes sense also without passes.
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... =45&t=4005

Yes, but in capture go there is "zugzwang", you can not simply end the game by agreement. Or am I missing something? :-?

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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Capture go problem
Post #20 Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:58 am 
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ChradH wrote:
Yes, but in capture go there is "zugzwang", you can not simply end the game by agreement. Or am I missing something? :-?


Actually, ending the game by agreement (instead of ending the game by passing) is an emergent feature of no pass go, as is the concept of territory. :)

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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