My guess is that white missed that black can play S13.

I was wondering if anyone had a sequence where white can live. I'm just not seeing anything at a quick glance.

Alive? To my admittedly feeble eyes, W looks very dead here. Am I missing something?

Yes, very likely.

I spent a while reading here - and for a while had convinved myself that white had just succeeded in dying in gote twice in a row But then I had a hard time finding a kill in the following line:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O 3 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 5 4 |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . 2 X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Probably I have better moves than the above, but I couldn't find any alternatives that kill.

I absolutely 100% stand by my assertion that white's last move was death in gote, though. I think it's absolutely clear that white is dead now, and think concrete variations are slightly superfluous. But feel free to ask if you want me to demonstrate a refutation of any particular white attempt at life. (If you do, most likely it'll be because I've gone wrong and will realise that I can't kill )

gosh darnnit its so obvious ...
*get yourself back together E* 
OK... talk about wishful thinking
*sigh* 
this moves forces a response,
and gives me some time to figure out 
what i should do next
*cigarette break*

Every move you play just because it "forces a response" is bad and just makes it harder for you to win. You eliminate aji for white and burn valuable ko threats. If you don't know where else to play, stop and think about it before playing a move purely because its sente.

I definitely still have to respond to this, if white gets to capture, then a and b are miai for an eye at S13:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm148 Prisoner Count
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O a |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . c b X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But I have a few options for keeping white dead. I like this obvious solid connection though - it seems to leave least aji/ko threats, and by firmly capturing 2 of white's stones (and thus giving me an eye) it helps me in any capturing race that could develop (not that I was ever really worried about this).

In a timed game, sometimes you can play a sente move or a ko threat to gain thinking time. On the board, it's a loss to waste a ko threat in this way, but even pros do it occasionally when they're in a critical situation and really need more time to think.

But this is not a timed game. There is no reason to play a move purely to give yourself time to figure out what to do, because you can already take as long as you want.

The atari , setting up a snapback, is better than (a) in the game ( ?) for two reasons:
(a) reduced your own points by 1; puts both and in atari, not just :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ X X X . . . . |
$$ O O O O O O . |
$$ O X X X X O . |
$$ X O . . X X X |
$$ O . O X O @ 1 |
$$ . . . X a X W |
$$ . . . . X O . |
$$ . X O X O O . |
$$ X . X X X O . |
$$ X O O O X O . |
$$ O X X O O . . |
$$ . O X O X O . |
$$ . O X X X X . |[/go]

What Aphelion and lightvector said.
Not all sente/forcing moves are good: there are good sente and bad sente moves.
You often play bad sente moves. I do, too. Learn to tell the difference -- it's an endless process.

That makes a lot of sense because i might need those KO threats,
i never though of it that way hmmmn,
i seen a lecture on Gou's site about good and bad sente
I'm going to watch it today,

i played this move to create eye space,
i got the feeling I'm burning all the hope i had for life out of this group,
but i gotta try, I'm on my last leg

... the rarely seen death in double gote.

Ko threats are only part of the equation. Even without a ko on the board, the moves you have just played are aji. If something changes on the board later, they can work. You are behind, so you need to conserve as much aji as possible, and later on you can make huge comebacks with that kind of aji. However, if you play them now they will never work, and you are just making life easier for White as you take away all his pressing worries. If I were white, I would say "thank you" everytime Black makes a move like that.

Your last move is also guilty of this. Instead of trying to create eye space, you should read out whether the group can live (its not so hard an exercise). If it can, great. If not, leave it, it may yield results later on.

Yes, W passed twice (died in gote) with and now . Work on your basic Life and Death.

Interestingly, its both death in double gote and double death in gote.

I don't think this is gote for white. I think Black must defend. Otherwise, threatens to make a live eyespace, and if black prevents it with ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O W |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . 9 . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . 0 8 5 . 2 . X O X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . 7 4 3 X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O 6 X 1 X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O 3 . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . 2 O . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . 1 X X O . X . X O X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . O X O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O X X O X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

...white can kill part of black's encircling wall and escape.

Now, since it is black's turn, black can defend and eliminate all his problems. One way might be with , so that white can't push at ''a'' any more.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X a X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O W |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X b |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X c . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It also lets black directly block a white push at ''b'', which maybe could become relevant if white gets things like ''c'' and ''d'' in the endgame, and black starts to become worried about his eyespace in the lower right. Black might also just capture in the center, which seems simple and good too.

Anyways, if one is preparing to resign, I can see this sort of move as a last-ditch effort to be "tricky" and hope the opponent doesn't see the threat. Although I would feel bad to win a lost game this way. And that's assuming you've actually read out such a sequence. If you're just playing blind, that's not good either.

And in general, it's bad to keep playing with your dead group. As Aphelion said:



To players:

If a group is dead, the proper way is to STOP PLAYING there the moment you realize this. Maybe the surrounding situation will change and suddenly allow you to revive the group. Or if not, maybe the threats of doing so will let you make a few more points and force the opponent to play a little more passively in the endgame. Also, it puts a bit more strain on the opponent to have to keep an eye out for tricky sequences as the game continues and the positions keep changing around it. If you go ahead and play it out, you simplify the position and make it obvious and easy the the opponent thereafter.

One example of the lingering aji is if white actually does get the below moves later in the endgame.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . 2 . X O 4 |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O 3 |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X a |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . W . X . 5 . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X b . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Then threatens the center, and if black defends with , white follows up with , threatening life, and if black prevents it with , he suddenly has to be worried about tricky moves such as , which removes the eyespace of black's lower right group and threaten ''a'' and ''b'' as miai for connection.

That's how you use a dead group. You stop playing and wait for the surrounding position to change as the game goes on, and suddenly you might have new chances.

Wow, this is a lot more complicated that I thought at first. White definitely can't get two eyes, but I think he can, if I tenuki, cut off some of my surrounding stones, and kill them first. Example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm151 Prisoner Count
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . 5 . X O 3 |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . 6 X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X 4 X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O 2 . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

which is pretty much a one-way street from my point of view.

I have a variety of moves to try to avoid these, although some tricky points seem to still remain. This capture seems to remove most aji (it might even give my group a second eye to go with the one I can always claim at R14), and it's also a reasonable-sized move in its own right.

I'm pretty sure this is the right move right now, Just keep pushing him until its over,
these stones are dead, i read it out,
but I'm still trying to get something out of them, something!