124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:12 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . 8 . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ah, that seems like a pretty good forcing move. I wonder if I would have been better off playing my own moves here, to prevent black from getting as large a wall. I feel like I have to respond with this spot, or black will take it.I expect black will either jump up from the left or directly into the middle. I'll figure out more of a plan after I see... but my stones here are feeling low and a little boring. Still want R14 though, to help enlarge the top a bit. Top left is bigger though, for now.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:36 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the first Fuego move I didn't really like. Feels unambitious. Fuego's sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O 5 . 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . 6 . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here are the moves it most considered, in order of thinking time:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . 8 . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

To me, b and c look much stronger than a. But Fuego still likes the position (50.1%), so I guess I'll just wait & see what happens next...

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:42 pm

Chew, I unhid a few posts, if you want to see what you're up against

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:43 pm

What!

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:57 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

DtS: INDEED! I mean, I suppose it prevents me playing R6 to change directions... kind of?
As an aside, it's cool that the bot shows win percentages. Mind including those in the hidden posts if it's convenient? It'd be interesting to look at for later, to track.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:34 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It seems the humans all didn't like B19, but black doesn't agree: it gives itself 50.3% odds, another slight uptick. This move at least seems natural, but Chew keeps sente. I think Fuego's real strength comes in fighting, so I don't think these submissive moves are helping it win. Predicted sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . 8 4 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . 3 . O 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 6 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:08 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is not a play that would occur to most of us. The approach to the top right corner seems so natural. As does a two space extension. The one space extension seems slow and inefficient.

However, the solid one space extension discourages a one space approach, so that the right side temperature drops noticeably. Given that Fuego thinks that it is ahead, if only slightly, playing to solidify its "lead" makes sense.

The more or less random playouts may be a factor here, as well. The extra solid base stands a better chance of living with random play. (I played around with a Monte Carlo program before the MCTS breakthrough and noticed a tendency to super solid play with it.)

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:25 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . a . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . O . . d . . | $$ | . . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Okay, here are the points I'm looking at. 'a' obviously does more of the same as my last move, but it's... a bit greedy. Optimistic, even. 'b' takes points, but it does it in gote, and doesn't threaten an invasion followup, so it may be a bit small for the moment. 'c' sets the moyo plan in motion, but offers up the side and potentially my top corner. It might be okay, since the wall would go towards my moyo, but it's still worth considering. 'd' steals points and either gives black a wall towards a kind of small area, or a wall towards my group, which is reasonabley stable. 'e' prevents black from getting too many points in the bottom-middle, but that's low enough priority that I think it's too small, right now. So, 'a', 'c', or 'd'? 'a' seems a little thin and a little gote, so black could jump up into the framework before the walls are complete. 'c' still looks weird to me, but it's sorely tempting because it seems to give influence where I want it most. This leaves the question in my mind: can I get 'd' in sente, then return to take 'c'? It looks like I can't be sure of getting sente, no. 'f' is also getting big, but still feels a little one-purpose, like 'b'. So, despite it seeming weird, I'm going to try the shoulder hit idea and see if the influence will help.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:37 pm

Sorry for the long delay! Don't worry, the program wasn't thinking all this time

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . 3 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Win % = 50.3%

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . 7 6 . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . 3 8 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O 9 . . . 5 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not sure about W26 in this diagram. Also it seems more likely to me that Chew will play directly at 28, rather than play the knight's move. Either way some interesting fighting may happen.

This is fun for me, because I don't have to do any thinking, just watch and try to guess what will happen!

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:20 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . O . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Okay, so this was my plan. I figure my bottom middle group has miai two different directions to live. While I don't really want to HAVE to live in gote there, I feel like it's pretty big to take the corner right now. There's a chance my two bottom groups will be separated in a way that the bottom middle could be attacked, but I'll try to avoid that.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:39 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . 5 O . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

win % ticked up a bit more, to 51.0% Still basically even though.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O 0 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X 7 9 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . 5 O 8 6 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . 2 . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . 3 . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . 7 . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X X X X 1 6 . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O O O O 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . 0 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The 33 invasion made sense, black was pretty indecisive about this. I give Fuego 30 mins, usually it finds a move it likes in about 5, and spends another 10 mins confirming, but this time it actually prefered Q3 for a while, and didn't commit until 20 minutes in. I wonder if Fuego's parameters are tuned to much shorter games, which causes it to hone in too quickly on a specific move. I may fiddle with some things later. Also I'm curious what stronger players think!

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:26 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:49 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O 7 . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

To give an idea of the issue I hinted at in the last post: Fuego took 15:08 to choose this move, and in this time went through 3,493,460 monte-carlo playouts. Of those 3.5 million playouts, 98% of them started from this move. In other words, only 2% of its thinking time was spent considering other moves besides this. Even further, 85% of the playouts started with this sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X 9 . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O 7 . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think the issue is that some aspects of the search are tuned to be optimal for much shorter search times, like 20 seconds per move. So it tries to narrow down its options very quickly, but as a result much of the 15 minutes is spent searching deeper, when it could be searching more broadly. Of course, I've seen similar complaints about players' diagrams in malkovich games, so maybe it's a hard problem for humans also (http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1012)

Anyway, win % crept up again, to 51.2%. At this pace it'll think it has a 60% winrate by move 100...

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:23 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:59 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . 9 O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

value: 50.4%, down 0.8% ! I feel like I'm watching the stock market. I like Kirby's move better than the 2 space jump Fuego was expecting, so I'm not surprised it feels a little bit worse about the situation now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm29 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 8 4 5 . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . 1 O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm39 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is one move where the longer times did make a difference. Until 9:17, it wanted to play the solid connect at O4. Compared to the game move, O4 is slower and definitely gote, but it leaves a lot less aji and makes the group stronger.

Life In 19x19

124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)