I'm terrible as white!

[Mezzanyne]

I joined the forum just so I could ask for some advice on this topic... (hello!)

Essentially, I've played a lot of games on KGS as black; I'm 7k but I'm ranked as 8, so I usually just play 6-7ks, meaning I almost always play first. However, lately I've been grabbing the w stones, and my performance seems to be greatly lowered. I've lost the last five matches where I was white against 8ks, but I've won the last ten matches where I was black against 6-7ks.

My play-style doesn't change at all when I change colors, which can be frustrating as I usually open with the chinese fuseki or a quick approach to claim a side...is that the problem? Do people at my level have different styles of play for different seats? What's the general idea? Am I going mad?

[RobertJasiek]

Typically by how many points do you lose your games as Black versus as White? When you resign as Black or White, what has happened; large kill?

[entropi]

I guess there is a psychological element here. Playing weaker opponents might be a source of overconfidence as well as pressure to be forced to win. Both may have severe negative effects on your play.

Maybe you don't get satisfied by getting ahead a few points every move, but you force yourself to overpower your opponent by killing big groups etc. That's a guaranteed way of disappointment.

[Li Kao]

My problem in even/low handi games as white is that I don't know how to get my opponent to play a nice game. Sometimes they try to force me into an ugly game, and I don't know how to avoid that. Of course I could go along with their style, but that's no fun.

[EdLee]

Find a good teacher to review your games and point out your common mistakes
that happen again and again; then fix them, one by one.

[Bill Spight]

I had a similar problem. During my first ten months of playing go I never took White. I was good at attacking where I had an advantage, but there are other go skills, such as sabaki, where I was lacking. White and Black face different challenges. I would suggest that you seek out chances to play White. Play opponents who are one to three stones weaker than you. That will give you opportunities to learn the skills you need as White.

Good luck!

[gowan]

I joined the forum just so I could ask for some advice on this topic... (hello!)

Essentially, I've played a lot of games on KGS as black; I'm 7k but I'm ranked as 8, so I usually just play 6-7ks, meaning I almost always play first. However, lately I've been grabbing the w stones, and my performance seems to be greatly lowered. I've lost the last five matches where I was white against 8ks, but I've won the last ten matches where I was black against 6-7ks.

My play-style doesn't change at all when I change colors, which can be frustrating as I usually open with the chinese fuseki or a quick approach to claim a side...is that the problem? Do people at my level have different styles of play for different seats? What's the general idea? Am I going mad?

White always starts with a disadvantage or with komi to compensate. In either case it feels like you are behind at the beginning. Don't let this feeling make you play unreasonable moves which can put you even further behind. So one thing to overcome is this psychological problem. Patience is a virtue when playing White. If you like moyo games as Black you have to remember that it is harder to play a moyo game as White because you are one step behind Black. It is easier for Black to control the early part of the game but there are ways White can take control or thwart what Black wants to do. For example you can play an early approach move against Blacks 3-4 stone to prevent a Chinese opening. One of the fun things about playing White is thinking about what Black's plan might be and playing to interfere with it. Remember, if you have been making good moves and you feel like you are behind you probably aren't behind. Concentrate on life-and-death problems and tesuji because as White you will often have to invade your opponent's position and live to tell the tale.

[EdLee]

Play opponents who are one to three stones...

For completeness, also play against opponents who are your level or higher.

[Chew Terr]

I tend to prefer white stones, though that was not always the case. One thing I recommend: play the opening over and over, ideally with someone who is willing to discuss. Plan to stop around move 30 or 50, regardless of result, then look at the position. Try to figure out where your stones were efficient and where your opponent's were. Look at obvious joseki mistakes (like if your corner dies utterly) and figure out why, if the difference is drastic.

Tell you what: I've got two Malkovich games going, but I don't think this should be a huge time commitment: let's do this together in Malkovich format. I'll play you as black for 30 moves, and we can discuss our thoughts on each move openly. I need to work on my opening, too.

Are there any particular openings you have trouble with?

[EeveeM]

one thing I've noticed when I play w, is that because I end up "behind" because b gets the first move, I have to compensate for it somehow. Learning how to use sente (or keeping the first move so your opponent has to respond instead of play elsewhere) is something that helped me a lot when learning how to use w instead of b. However, there is several ways to approach learning how to use w, but this is just my way (so far) of how I use w compared to b. The first move has quite a bit of weight.

[dangomango]

if you're terrible as white, it's simple just play as black
if you're a 9d as black you're still 9d! even if you're only like 1k as white

all joking aside
black gets to choose how the opening is played
white usually gets too choose too but his options are limited to black's favor

[EeveeM]

if you're terrible as white, it's simple just play as black
if you're a 9d as black you're still 9d! even if you're only like 1k as white

all joking aside
black gets to choose how the opening is played
white usually gets too choose too but his options are limited to black's favor

I agree with this too. However, learning how to play w can help people handle an odd situation, especially if you end up having alot of opponents or people asking for games. :3 It really depends on what the individual wants to do. However they go about it, playing is playing, and you'll improve with effort.

[Loons]

I like Gowan's advice.

Something I have found (anecdotally...) is that players on KGS often know and play main lines of "powerful" popular openings (as black). And they are often pretty good at it. While on the Asian servers various, players seem more likely to march to their own tune (with odds and ends from recent pro game broadcasts thrown in).

There are a lot of good disruptive paths for white in popular black fuseki, although any one is much less well-trodden than the normal variations. Become cursorily familiar with those as white, and you can find your opponents suddenly floundering. Of course, a lot of those lines create a real fuseki, instead of both players trying to remember popular pro moves - which is not necessarily easy.

Worse to worse ...Approach is a fun and valid option, even if was a 4-4 (afterward you can play 3-4s or 5-3s to make black's direction choice mediocre, and/or pick up an early double approach, which stops black trying a lot of conventional opens).

FINALLY I want to relink to something tchan001 provided us recently on his excellent blog, particularly [Cho Chikun's] comments on amateur fuseki.

[tchan001]

Inspire yourself and look at high dans playing high handicap games. They are at an even more disadvantageous position and yet they still play well.

[Mezzanyne]

Wow. All of these responses have meant a lot to me, I'll really take them to heart ^^ Thanks very much!! And I'll be sure to report back with a more informed evaluation of my problem when I understand it fully.

Tell you what: I've got two Malkovich games going, but I don't think this should be a huge time commitment: let's do this together in Malkovich format. I'll play you as black for 30 moves, and we can discuss our thoughts on each move openly. I need to work on my opening, too.

Are there any particular openings you have trouble with?

That's quite generous! I'd love to take you up on that offer.

Edit: Oh and, until now, I actually made it from KGS 8k to 7k by avoiding white completely xD interesting anecdote...