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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #721 Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:31 pm 
Oza
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm144 Move 144 W74 B72
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . B O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay... I'm so confused. I have no idea what our strategic goals are. Make a living group without conceding too much influence to white, I guess. But this seems like a way to get some height before we extend. If W ignores the atari, he risks getting nothing in the middle.
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #722 Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:53 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm144 Move 144 W74 B72
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . B . . C O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm short on time, so I'm just going to switch this to (what I think is) the "normal" move for the position. Hopefully Violence won't change it back. I've never seen jts's move before, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. I think living on the side here is enough anyway. There's aji in the corner if we live. Jts's move loses the aji if we go on to atari like he thought.

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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #723 Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:38 am 
Oza
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This move led me to go back and figure out how many moves I've had corrected since I took over as littlest brother. Apparently my core strengths are answering ko threats and forcing moves. :batman:

This post by jts was liked by: emeraldemon
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #724 Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:44 am 
Tengen
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for obs only:
he can not answer that way...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move 144 W74 B72
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X 6 X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . 5 . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X 7 . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X 3 . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X 4 X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O 1 2 . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . B . . C O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i am not sure if this works??
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move 144 W74 B72
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X 2 X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O 1 3 4 . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X 5 . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . B . . C O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


intresting aji...

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #725 Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:36 am 
Judan
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Violence?

**BUMP**

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #726 Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:16 am 
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errrr..... Approved.
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #727 Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:31 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm146 Move 144 W74 B72
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm144 Move 144 W74 B72
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . b . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The temptation was, I was torn between trying to attack and kill the group or playing to take as many points as possible. I think we can at least try to kill, so I'm choosing a move that undercuts aggressively. Still feeling really out of my depths in this game, but part of me bets that everyone is.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #728 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:43 pm 
Judan
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I approve.

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #729 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:01 pm 
Lives in sente
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Approved

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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #730 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:34 pm 
Oza
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm146 Move 144 W74 B72
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . B . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I strongly considered K3 but I think it's aji keshi... k8 is definitely going to get separated, and most likely f5 and e10 will get separated (if this bottom group lives in gote). I want to avoid provoking W to connect his stones so that he'll need to strengthen them when we start flailing around trying to keep f5 healthy and profitable. I also considered L2, but it seem a little insipid, and anyway, if W plays L2 we can play K3.

Probably the real reason I like this move is (a) the shape is pretty and (b) I want to give K8 two ways to run, so it's good to give our group a little height.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm146 Move 144 W74 B72
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . B . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 6 5 X . 3 2 O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O 4 7 . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If we get to this point, I think "a" will guarantee life. (W can take m1 himself, of course, but then we can crush the corner.) If W tenuki's, we have enough access to the center to make up for W's shenanigans on the left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm146 Move 144 W74 B72
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . B . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 7 5 X . 3 2 O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O 4 6 . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't think W can play this way, we'll cut through his stones like butter.
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #731 Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:43 pm 
Gosei
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@Joaz and/or Shapenaji and/or Chew:
Is jts' last move going to be approved? By whom, and why?

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #732 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:09 am 
Judan
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Loons wrote:
@Joaz and/or Shapenaji and/or Chew:
Is jts' last move going to be approved? By whom, and why?


I would guess that Daniel will change it. K2 looks like dual sente to me

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #733 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:45 am 
Gosei
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Loons:
My instinct said originally that the move would be approved, but now, I've second-guessed myself. I'm betting that both 'big brothers' will change the move for something more loose and sabaki-focused. This seems too thin to confidently live locally, but in black's shoes, I'd rather move faster. I would want to get out, both to get a larger area to live, but also to wreck our 'potential territory'. Obviously, black has a decent hunk of points elsewhere on the board. However, we obviously can't be given this whole third of the board. So I'm thinking black will try to run faster, get more eyespace, and vigorously dive through the empty space we've been staking out. I'm betting that both brothers will correct, though.~

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #734 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:32 am 
Gosei
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Hm, I have to think about this...

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #735 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:21 am 
Judan
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@Loons and other observers:
Implicit within my opinion of the best move is the assumption that the game hangs on the life or death of this group. According to my count, we are down by about 45 points, and if this group lives, there is not enough space left elsewhere on the board for us to catch up.

I think that black's best is the following sequence: ( where 2 and 4 are forced )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . 5 . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 2 1 X . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 4 O 3 . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Like Terr, I am feeling out of my depth here. I wanted to force black into the corner, let him live, and take huge territory on the lower side. Shapenaji overruled this. He played so that black can start a group on the lower side.
As I said above, according to my count we have to kill this group. I assume that Shapenaji's count is roughly like mine, and that he also believes that we must kill it. I have no problem with that since he is way stronger than I. If he thinks that we can kill it, I'll believe that we can. Following that belief, I'll play the most aggressive moves possible. ( This, BTW, is my rationale for approving the last move. As Terr says, it is the best attempt to kill )
What worries me is that Violence apparently thinks that we can't kill the group. He had a chance to head for the certain safety of the corner, but he chose the side. I have great respect for Violences' L&D judgement, and he would not have opted for the side if he had believed that black will die there.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #736 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:32 am 
Judan
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I think that the entire game may come down to this life and death problem:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O X X . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X a b X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Where is the vital point? My current opinion is 'c'.
So we poke first with 1, then play 3 at the vital point:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O X X . 2 1 O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X 6 4 X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 7 3 . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #737 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:23 am 
Judan
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More speculations on the theme:

If N1 is indeed the vital point, it might be best for black to take it first. The diagram below shows this attempt. The natural replies by white can lead to a surprisingly easy life:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O X X . 3 2 O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X 4 . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 5 . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So white has to play something different:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . 6 5 4 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O X X 8 2 3 O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by: Loons
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #738 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:57 pm 
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there is no way in hell my move is worth FOUR post from joaz...... :roll: doesn't he have taxes to do or something?
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Offline Prodigious
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #739 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:44 am 
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I see very little chance of black actually dying, but white might become strong enough in the process that E9 would become a serious threat. This game is just getting interesting...

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Offline schultz
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #740 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:37 pm 
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Prodigious wrote:
I see very little chance of black actually dying, but white might become strong enough in the process that E9 would become a serious threat. This game is just getting interesting...

Magicwand pointed that out as well. This is definitely an exciting game, and one I've enjoyed watching quite a bit. :)

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