Counting Territory

Boyce · Post by **Boyce** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:48 pm

I have a terrible time counting during games so I don't always know when to resign even if I'm behind. Honestly, I hardly know when I'm behind or ahead at all. Is there anyway to practice counting besides just playing games over and over? Or is it something that comes over time? Also, on a side note, I noticed lots of people play on KGS and I"m kind of new to the server but I saw different rooms. Is there like a room with people from this forum on it? Everyone around here seems really nice and offers to review games. I didn't know if there was a room on KGS for that or just the forum. Thanks in advance for any help

.

Boyce

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:08 pm

Hi Boyce, counting changes with our levels, because as we improve,
we see more and more possibilities on the board, which naturally
affect the count. Various people have mentioned various guidelines
and/or techniques on how to count at various places (on this forum, even

).
For example: the "palm" guesstimate

, counting in units of 2 points,
counting at certain intervals (e.g. at move 30, 60, ...), etc. etc.
There are even lectures available about counting, somewhere (online).
Pros can count very accurately very quickly, but even for them
there are boards that are not easy to count.
Ultimately, you just need to practice -- starting count in every game now.

aurik · Post by **aurik** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:34 pm

The best way to get better is to practice practice practice.

When I'm too mentally tired or frustrated to play a game, I like to kibitz higher level games on KGS. In between guessing the next move, I count territories and try to get an accurate picture of who is winning.

Another thing I like to do is look through a pro game that ended in resignation, and try to count out. Often, you'd be surprised at how thin the margin is when they resign!

Some techniques I have picked up:
- Learn shapes which are composed of 3, 4, and 5 squares. Then, when you look at a space, try to fill it mentally with those shapes. That way you can count by large numbers!

- To count captured stones that are still on the board, simply add them twice.

- When there's a large rectangular space, use multiplication. For example, a 3x3 square in the corner is 9. Once you get the hang of this, you can count slightly more cluttered/broken rectangles. For example, if you have a 4x3 square with 2 friendly stones in the middle that's 4 x 3 - 2 = 10. A whole side is 19. Half of a side is about 10. With practice you'll be able to guesstimate at a glance.

- After counting a bunch of games you'll start to be able to approximate not-yet-finished territories with reasonable (+/-) accuracy, so that you can get a decent count early in the game to determine whether you should be playing aggressively or whether you should play solid moves that give your opponent less chance to get back in it.

- When counting my own games I'll often count "up and down". I'll start with my largest area and count up, then add komi and the difference in prisoners. Then, I'll pick the largest opponent territory and count down. Then, pick my next largest territory, and count up from there. Rinse and repeat, descending in territory size until either your byo-yomi is almost done or you finish the count, and the result is the number of points that you are ahead. There are two bonuses about this method that I like when playing in an actual game: you don't have to remember two numbers (white 75 and black 65...or was it black 70? wait, white 65?) and secondly, if you don't have enough time to finish the count, you still have an approximation of the score.

Anyway, practice practice practice!

Tryphon · Post by **Tryphon** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:46 pm

Until recently, I couldn't force myself to count. But I went back to 9x9 games, where it's a lot easier, and maybe even more important since you're fast in the situation where you must choose between a quiet solid move and something more aggressive because you're behind.

So my advice : play 9x9.

My second advice : I don't think that, at 16k, you should really bother with counting. Watch your groups, watch your eyes and connexions, you'll then be 10k, counting will come later.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:22 pm

Tryphon wrote:...I don't think that, at 16k, you should really bother with counting...

I'll agree with Tryphon that this is maybe not the highest priority for you right now, but I wouldn't say that it is zero priority. It is something that you have to learn sooner or later, so it can't hurt to get in the habit now.

As to the details of the habit:
1) I, like EdLee, use the palm-sized measurement. It works best for in-person games, but the equivalent can be done on a screen - maybe use a business card or a postage stamp or something that allows you to quickly measure in chunks.
2) Practice counting on his time. There will be times when there is no obvious place for your opponent to play, so reading during his time is not particularly useful. Get in the habit of counting - and making other non-tactical judgements - during those times.
3) As Aurik says, practice counting while watching a close game between dans on KGS. Often they will be taking close to 30 seconds per move. You can spend several minutes getting a count while they only make a few moves. Then check to see how close you are when the game ends.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:26 pm

And, yes, there is an L19 room on KGS. Click on the 'rooms' menu. I think that it is under 'clubs'.

daal · Post by **daal** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:04 am

I played a 2 stone handicap as white a few days ago, and I was surprised when my opponent suddenly resigned. I didn't realize that I was ahead by 60 pts. :oops:

Go provides an unlimited supply of skills to improve at.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:50 am

I remember when I, as a 4 kyu, began to study pro games, I could not accurately count a completed pro game. :shock:

Mosdefgo · Post by **Mosdefgo** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:14 pm

One way to take the easy way out is to simply compare territories of similar size. Or to count two smaller territories as one larger territory. It doesn't exactly tell you how many points you have but it does give you a good estimate as to whether you're ahead or behind.

I read about this method in a book. I cant exactly remember where but Ive been using this method for a while. Like all things in Go it takes practice to get a hang of though. :tmbup:

Hope this helps.

Boyce · Post by **Boyce** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:44 pm

Thank you for all the advice. It seems for the most part I may not need to be really focusing on this skill quite yet. However, I better get the practice in as much as possible. Judging by my most recent attempts, counting is going to take me quite a while to get the hang of.

Boyce

NoSkill · Post by **NoSkill** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:59 pm

Just look at the position or area and guess how many empty points there are. Every captured stone is a +2.

Quick guesstimates are usually within 0-7 points for me

jts · Post by **jts** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:23 pm

I haven't done all these lessons yet, but if you care enough, they'll certain improve your counting abilities.

Currently my ability to count actually outstrips my willingness to count. I think I'm going to have to lose a few more games due to gross misconceptions about what the count was before I really care.

(Oops, there are two more, but I can only attach three files.)

Life In 19x19

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