The Japanese won't let me be 3k

Numsgil · Post by **Numsgil** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:29 am

My rank graph is bouncing off of the 3k ceiling pretty hard, and I at least partially blame my late night PST games, which seem to have a larger than average number of Japanese players. They kick my butt pretty hard compared to mid afternoon players (which tend to be more European or American). It could also just be that it's late and I'm tired

Anyway, this is a sample game.

I sort of "invented" a joseki in the bottom right corner. I doubt it's proper but our mistakes canceled each other out and I think the result was even enough.

I'm pretty sure I chose the wrong direction for attacking the top invasion (a capping play would seem much better).

I also screwed up my attack on the center left group and allowed it to connect out, which is probably the game ending mistake. (w130)

While specific moves are no doubt suspect, I'd be interested in advice on a higher level of how to handle this sort of opponent. He made a lot of moves I don't consider kosher, but I didn't/couldn't punish them very well, so maybe they were just fine.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:53 am

Some thoughts on some moves.

Twenty.

Maybe think about this;

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I feel black can be relied upon to crosscut. Something is bound to work. I'd start by checking :w22:

, maybe with a b first.

44: Not a more normal enclosure? As it stands with M17, F17 is something of a weakness. And this in particular doesn't cover it. Don't begrudge your opponent the 3-3 in a case like this. A database search says you should also think about M15 (huh, I need to add that move to my repertoire)

52: F10 for me.

130: Yeah, one rank higher seems to cut.

I find against "Japanese style" players, playing earnestly and honestly works great. Of course, this also works great against everyone else

.

PS: Be careful about trying to kill things. If you were dead set on murder on top I'd probably try this.

pps: It's amazing how much stronger the people that come online an hour and a half after you should have gone to bed are compared to the ones on after lunch, or Sunday morning during your second coffee for that matter. I also have noticed this phenomena.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:07 am

My try ^^

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:41 am

I think that "joseki" was massively favorable to black... I think extend a second time is normal. Also, you can tenuki from the initial armpit hit, or play on top instead of down.

Puppycakes · Post by **Puppycakes** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:37 am

I showed the tesuji for black, but I think that white 148 filling a liberty for no reason is the real culprit. This is the move that you should erase from your game.

aurik · Post by **aurik** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:52 am

Interesting tesuji!

But, I might have found a refutation:

E4, C5, D6, B5, B6, E6, E5, A6, A7, A5, ---> D7 <---

Now if B completes the connection underneath (@B2), capturing at E8 makes F9 and D8 miai to cut.
If B plays E8, D8 is atari, and then A8 makes the local situation a temporary seki.
If B plays D8 or F9, W captures, B plays the other of D8 or F9, and then W plays B7 to prevent the connection underneath.

Still a pretty cool tsumego, is there a different way B can refute the refutation?

Puppycakes · Post by **Puppycakes** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:13 am

aurik wrote:Interesting tesuji!

But, I might have found a refutation:

E4, C5, D7, B5, B6, E6, E5, A6, A7, A5, ---> D5 <---

Now if B completes the connection underneath (@B2), capturing at E8 makes F9 and D8 miai to cut.
If B plays E8, D8 is atari, and then A8 makes the local situation a temporary seki.
If B plays D8 or F9, W captures, B plays the other of D8 or F9, and then W plays B7 to prevent the connection underneath.

Still a pretty cool tsumego, is there a different way B can refute the refutation?

I'm kind of confused. D5 is the first stone played, isn't it?

aurik · Post by **aurik** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:16 am

My mistake, D7 and D5 inverted. I am bad at coordinates. I think I've fixed the sequence above.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . X O . . O . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . X . X . X O . X . O X O O . . | $$ | . O O O O X . X O O . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . X O . O X X O O . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | X . X O O X O X . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . X X X X X O . O . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O . . . . . O . O X . | $$ | . O . O O . . . . , O . . . . , O X . | $$ | . O O X X . X X X X O X . . . . O X . | $$ | . X X . . X O O O X O X . . . . . O . | $$ | 0 . . . X O O X X X O X O . . . . . . | $$ | 9 6 O 4 7 O X X X O O X X O O O O . . | $$ | . 5 3 1 8 O O X O O X . . X O X X . . | $$ | . . . O 2 O X X X X . . X . X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . X O . . O . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . X . X . X O . X . O X O O . . | $$ | . O O O O X . X O O . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . X O . O X X O O . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | X . X O O X O X . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . X X X X X O . O . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O . . . . . O . O X . | $$ | . O . O O . . . . , O . . . . , O X . | $$ | . O O X X . X X X X O X . . . . O X . | $$ | . X X . . X O O O X O X . . . . . O . | $$ | O . . 2 X O O X X X O X O . . . . . . | $$ | X O O O X O X X X O O X X O O O O . . | $$ | 1 X X X O O O X O O X . . X O X X . . | $$ | . . . O O O X X X X . . X . X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Puppycakes · Post by **Puppycakes** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:56 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . X O . . O . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . X . X . X O . X . O X O O . . | $$ | . O O O O X . X O O . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . X O . O X X O O . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | X . X O O X O X . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . X X X X X O . O . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O . . . . . O . O X . | $$ | . O . O O . . . . , O . . . . , O X . | $$ | . O O X X 3 X X X X O X . . . . O X . | $$ | 4 X X 2 1 X O O O X O X . . . . . O . | $$ | O . . O X O O X X X O X O . . . . . . | $$ | X O O O X O X X X O O X X O O O O . . | $$ | X X X X O O O X O O X . . X O X X . . | $$ | . . . O O O X X X X . . X . X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ah. I missed this sequence.

cdybeijing · Post by **cdybeijing** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:27 pm

It's funny to me that you think the Japanese opponents are holding you back. I live in China so basically anytime during the day that I play on KGS my opponents are Japanese or sometimes Chinese. I have basically found the Japanese 1 dan - 3k to play passive, soft openings and middlegames with a relatively solid endgame. Not exactly the toughest style to play against.

Maybe I should play more in the late evenings or early mornings, to get a chance to beat up on all the weak American and European players

Numsgil · Post by **Numsgil** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:16 am

I find Japanese players fall in two camps: the first is like you describe, and plays a calm, nearly passive moyo centric game. The second is maybe more of a Korean style full board battle with lots of small groups trying to live. I usually have trouble with both

I don't always handle invasions very well, either the attacking or defending.

But as Loons points out the really strong players always come out about an hour and a half after I should have gone to bed

By comparison European and American players tend to be more in the middle between those two extremes. Or that's my take on it anyway.

Tryphon · Post by **Tryphon** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:29 am

I often watch dan players games on KGS, whose names sound rather westerners than japanese, and it's often huge battles (ok, most of dan players play blitz on KGS) with few strategy, what is a little disappointing.

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:29 am

Numsgil wrote:I find Japanese players fall in two camps: the first is like you describe, and plays a calm, nearly passive moyo centric game. The second is maybe more of a Korean style full board battle with lots of small groups trying to live. I usually have trouble with both I don't always handle invasions very well, either the attacking or defending.

But as Loons points out the really strong players always come out about an hour and a half after I should have gone to bed

By comparison European and American players tend to be more in the middle between those two extremes. Or that's my take on it anyway.

You can always try playing on Tygem or Wbaduk for a while to get used to the berserker style. I've found that the solution is to play calmly and let them get two or more weak groups in the same area, and then play them one off of another until one or more finally dies. I might edit in a game example in a bit.

judicata · Post by **judicata** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:59 am

Funny, we're the same rank on KGS and I've had the same problem with the aggressive "berserker" style. I play automatch a lot, and I started running into these very aggressive Japanese players last fall, around 6k or so. Maybe there just happen to be several around our level.

I think I've gotten a lot better at handling them. I avoid making weak groups, even at the risk of making a slow play, and wait for an opportunity to take advantage of a weakness. I also find that attacking "on a large scale" works very well if you keep in mind the proper direction. These players are often so focused on killing a group or destroying some particular section of territory, you can often get a huge advantage by keeping your wits about you.

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Here's an example of me sandbagging on WBaduk. I wasn't reading much in this game, but I've always found that staying calm, not trying to kill right away, and letting my opponent make multiple weak groups means that once the middlegame gets started, I can start killing everything, and then be retarded and let my opponent make sekis at the end, but still win.

Life In 19x19

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