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 Post subject: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
Post #1 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:15 am 
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Liked others: 50
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Rank: malk-5k
KGS: go1986
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Chinese]SZ[19]HA[6]KM[0.50]TM[2700]
PW[ZenTCGA]PB[Zen19S]BR[4d]DT[2011-06-29]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Zen19S [4d\]: GTP Engine for Zen19S (black): Zen version 7.8d9
]RE[B+14.50]
;B[dp]BL[2699.51]
;B[pd]BL[2699.232]
;B[dd]BL[2698.997]
;B[pp]BL[2698.738]
;B[dj]BL[2698.478]
;B[pj]BL[2698.215]
;W[fc]WL[2693.063]
;B[df]BL[2683.58]
;W[nc]WL[2692.114]C[LightningK [3k\]: who's white this time?
]
;B[pf]BL[2674.024]
;W[jd]WL[2690.137]C[oliu321: chou
oliu321: 9p?
]
;B[ip]BL[2659.973]
;W[cn]WL[2684.672]
;B[co]BL[2648.466]
;W[dn]WL[2681.218]
;B[fp]BL[2638.738]
;W[dh]WL[2680.427]
;B[fi]BL[2623.3]C[uranium123 [?\]: W play so fast...
]
;W[fh]WL[2676.938]C[LightningK [3k\]: this already seems better than joanne's game :P
]
;B[gi]BL[2605.636]
;W[ff]WL[2673.753]C[BongoBob [6k\]: keeping b all cut up :p
]
;B[mp]BL[2590.372]C[oliu321: white apparently has more experience giving handicaps
]
;W[ph]WL[2650.064]C[LightningK [3k\]: he'll need it
LightningK [3k\]: hehe
]
;B[ec]BL[2572.898]
;W[fd]WL[2646.737]
;B[cl]BL[2557.606]
;W[dl]WL[2642.324]
;B[dk]BL[2544.734]
;W[fl]WL[2641.066]
;B[el]BL[2532.614]
;W[em]WL[2637.168]
;B[dm]BL[2523.294]
;W[cm]WL[2636.415]
;B[dl]BL[2512.613]C[cdocdo [3k\]: W is so fast!!
]
;W[fn]WL[2635.519]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: I have bet $100 on this game to Colbert
Peyote [1d\]: seems w playing during his breakfeast
]
;B[gm]BL[2499.413]
;W[gn]WL[2633.184]C[gogonuts [4d\]: w got a decent start
go1986 [11k\]: W+R
BOThater36 [4d\]: he knows bots
]
;B[im]BL[2483.088]C[dingogo [1k\]: it seems impossible for zen to win. that would mean zen is about 3p !
]
;W[hm]WL[2630.741]C[Peyote [1d\]: hope for the destruction of zen
LightningK [3k\]: lol, no dingo :P
]
;B[hl]BL[2473.811]
;W[hn]WL[2629.409]C[LightningK [3k\]: only 2 stones max between weakest and strongest pros
]
;B[in]BL[2464.024]
;W[gl]WL[2628.323]C[gogonuts [4d\]: between pro 1p and 9p not even 2 stones
]
;B[eo]BL[2447.681]
;W[en]WL[2625.984]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: i bet My a Trillion kgs for w
LightningK [3k\]: maybe between lee sedol and a soon-to-retire old pro :P
gghideki [2k\]: haha
]
;B[hk]BL[2434.584]C[ajahuang [6d\]: hater is losing his money
]
;W[hp]WL[2611.367]C[gogonuts [4d\]: hater bet on w?
ajahuang [6d\]: yes
BOThater36 [4d\]: yes
gogonuts [4d\]: blinded by hate :-)
ajahuang [6d\]: USD 100
]
;B[gp]BL[2417.233]C[CBlue [1d?\]: >.>
]
;W[io]WL[2606.004]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: why? we are human .. and fight again robot in the feature
]
;B[jo]BL[2405.135]
;W[ho]WL[2605.245]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: Yang Yo-Chia my 35 years friend told me Chou can beat Zen h-6
]
;B[hq]BL[2395.45]
;W[bl]WL[2604.187]C[gghideki [2k\]: I guess so :)
]
;B[bk]BL[2386.227]
;W[cq]WL[2601.817]C[CBlue [1d?\]: uh
gogonuts [4d\]: wow
cdocdo [3k\]: woa!
dingogo [1k\]: for sure beting only on hate is a disgrace
]
;B[cp]BL[2372.801]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: some of ama maybe have better chance again bot better than pro
uranium123 [?\]: We will learn some advance hanete from W
martin3141 [3d\]: b5 b4 a7
CBlue [1d?\]: doesnt w need b5?
uranium123 [?\]: advanced
ed3003 [3k\]: who is w
uranium123 [?\]: hamete
]
;W[bq]WL[2563.458]C[threeoone [6k\]: resigning early
gogonuts [4d\]: w is in much better shape than w in the last 6 stone game, but i still dont see zen losing
]
;B[dr]BL[2348.44]C[oliu321: black is not that thick, so white may be able to get away with it
]
;W[bo]WL[2550.883]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: lots of aji LL
]
;B[bp]BL[2336.899]
;W[ap]WL[2549.824]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: ko?
]
;B[bn]BL[2327.25]
;W[an]WL[2547.976]C[oliu321: kao, ko?
martin3141 [3d\]: nice
LightningK [3k\]: anti-zen weapon...ko :D
martin3141 [3d\]: lots ot threats at k4-area
]
;B[fg]BL[2311.226]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: human power
sowhatnow: its always settled by ko xD
]
;W[eg]WL[2538.4]C[pkunzip [2d\]: ko killer
gogonuts [4d\]: d2: stronger than the nidan resistance w usually gets on 6 stones
ajahuang [6d\]: F13?
]
;B[gg]BL[2295.223]
;W[ef]WL[2536.306]C[CBlue [1d?\]: oO
ajahuang [6d\]: damage a lot
cdocdo [3k\]: yeah, ko is last weapon of human race !!
sowhatnow: f13 is black getting side
pkunzip [2d\]: BOT confuse now
BOThater36 [4d\]: I have to sacrefyce my sleep time for this game, Zen owe me too much
]
;B[ao]BL[2276.546]C[gogonuts [4d\]: not confused enough
ajahuang [6d\]: F13 is really too bad
uranium123 [?\]: lots of aji on the right upper corner...
]
;W[iq]WL[2534.165]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: bot very strong...
oliu321: show begins...
behta [1k\]: allez zen courage
]
;B[jp]BL[2266.446]
;W[bo]WL[2533.464]C[uranium123 [?\]: left upper...
]
;B[aq]BL[2256.859]C[oliu321: no way black can win the ko
]
;W[bm]WL[2531.635]C[rover999 [1d\]: 为什么不交换一下黑白?
BongoBob [6k\]: o_O
]
;B[ao]BL[2247.016]
;W[bj]WL[2526.573]C[gogonuts [4d\]: zen got a position where only w is in danger - thats enough for b to be winning
st21 [1d\]: b strong in ko
]
;B[qh]BL[2227.222]
;W[qi]WL[2524.062]C[CBlue [1d?\]: love those tenukis
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: this ko look very bad for w
]
;B[pi]BL[2215.674]
;W[qg]WL[2522.786]C[dingogo [1k\]: if n is the number of ko on the game, the number of pertinent evaluation MC can do should be divided by something like n! or 2 power n. That should make the bot confused
behta [1k\]: :) but computer s'en fout
pkunzip [2d\]: BOT confuse in ko
]
;B[oh]BL[2206.475]
;W[rh]WL[2521.216]C[st21 [1d\]: another ko?
st21 [1d\]: =)
cdocdo [3k\]: tenuki....
uranium123 [?\]: take it
sowhatnow: white is not so great -_-
gogonuts [4d\]: zen is never confused about the center :-)
]
;B[qk]BL[2188.729]
;W[qe]WL[2518.418]C[martin3141 [3d\]: bot just wants center ... as always xD
CBlue [1d?\]: actually i think b is not so great
BOThater36 [4d\]: dingo, can you say that in French?
]
;B[pg]BL[2178.759]
;W[pe]WL[2516.379]C[ajahuang [6d\]: he is trying to produce many kos
ajahuang [6d\]: that's one of zen's weakness
st21 [1d\]: b just giving up too much
uranium123 [?\]: threats?
oliu321: If black is human, I would say white's situation now is pretty good
]
;B[qf]BL[2159.753]
;W[rf]WL[2514.897]C[st21 [1d\]: that algoritmic problem
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: zen brain can process 1 peta flops / s how can be confused.
]
;B[oe]BL[2150.685]
;W[qh]WL[2510.635]
;B[nd]BL[2137.48]C[uranium123 [?\]: w is making ajis for B
]
;W[qd]WL[2509.464]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: Game over, human trump
gogonuts [4d\]: but a human taking 6 stones is much weaker in the part of the game thats still ahead
]
;B[pc]BL[2128.379]
;W[qc]WL[2508.117]C[gogonuts [4d\]: i dont feel w caught up enough
]
;B[jg]BL[2105.105]
;W[qp]WL[2501.71]C[uranium123 [?\]: How about the integrity of B's moyo?
st21 [1d\]: w strong?
gghideki [2k\]: 9p
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: game preaty over in move 100 :D
gogonuts [4d\]: 9p enough for you?
]
;B[qo]BL[2089.583]
;W[pq]WL[2498.942]C[st21 [1d\]: really 9p ??
st21 [1d\]: wow!
sowhatnow: a bot being 9p
BOThater36 [4d\]: this is much much different from previous pro game
]
;B[qq]BL[2074.577]C[oliu321: black is not thick enough
]
;W[rp]WL[2496.852]C[ajahuang [6d\]: lets say that w is able to beat Go player in the world, with a reasonable chance
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: yeah.. w learn something from computer
ajahuang [6d\]: any Go player
st21 [1d\]: oliu so right
]
;B[oq]BL[2059.481]
;W[pr]WL[2495.883]
;B[bi]BL[2050.299]
;W[ap]WL[2493.904]C[pkunzip [2d\]: ko creater
st21 [1d\]: w will kill g4
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: super master overplay maybe good.
]
;B[ro]BL[2025.855]C[st21 [1d\]: if win ko
uranium123 [?\]: Why B kenuki?
gogonuts [4d\]: uses local position as threats, not bad
]
;W[rq]WL[2473.581]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: Zen has two liability, UL and LL group
]
;B[ao]BL[2015.523]
;W[ak]WL[2472.481]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: o8 moyos.. decedie the game
martin3141 [3d\]: b11 is a good move for a bot
]
;B[cj]BL[2003.84]
;W[ap]WL[2470.651]
;B[fb]BL[1994.543]
;W[gb]WL[2467.947]C[pkunzip [2d\]: W know how to use ko to sonfuse Zen
gghideki [2k\]: ouch
]
;B[ao]BL[1980.91]
;W[ck]WL[2466.907]C[threeoone [6k\]: w alive
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: not yet
]
;B[ch]BL[1969.356]
;W[ap]WL[2465.996]
;B[ke]BL[1957.782]
;W[ar]WL[2463.761]C[CBlue [1d?\]: oO
gogonuts [4d\]: zen playing a relaxed game
]
;B[or]BL[1944.281]C[sowhatnow: woo :)
]
;W[qr]WL[2461.82]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: LL b group ok?
kik [4k\]: BOT bug is double KO and it can reduce the adj of the BOT
]
;B[ir]BL[1935.503]
;W[ql]WL[2451.982]C[uranium123 [?\]: if B does something to strenthen his moyo, that is enough...
gogonuts [4d\]: war :-)
Peyote [1d\]: o
BongoBob [6k\]: o_o
BOThater36 [4d\]: game decision time
ajahuang [6d\]: b is ahead over 50 points
Koffein [-\]: wow
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: last chance
]
;B[pl]BL[1922.082]C[oliu321: win mode?
]
;W[pm]WL[2442.371]C[oliu321: chou's show time
gogonuts [4d\]: y
]
;B[rl]BL[1910.325]C[uranium123 [?\]: not a descent game for E...
Slayan [5k\]: robot fight?
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: super hamete again super bot
st21 [1d\]: ...
zmiei [19k?\]: wooow
gogonuts [4d\]: hm
ARPAnet [?\]: gghideki, what is the playout rate right now?
zmiei [19k?\]: hi ppl
pkunzip [2d\]: no ko here
gogonuts [4d\]: s8 extinguishes the fire ...
BOThater36 [4d\]: 88%
]
;W[og]WL[2405.721]C[gghideki [2k\]: 7600 po/s on master pc
Slayan [5k\]: Zen TCGA is a bot too?
]
;B[of]BL[1899.782]
;W[ng]WL[2404.854]C[ARPAnet [?\]: thanks
uranium123 [?\]: he works for the website?
]
;B[nh]BL[1889.126]
;W[mg]WL[2403.061]C[gogonuts [4d\]: is there a way to ask zen for the winrate on kgs?
BongoBob [6k\]: TCGA is a pro, Slayan
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: 88% ^**
]
;B[mh]BL[1879.354]C[Slayan [5k\]: ok
]
;W[lg]WL[2399.528]C[gghideki [2k\]: no but me :)
gogonuts [4d\]: lol
martin3141 [3d\]: seems desperate to me
Slayan [5k\]: wow with 6 handi
st21 [1d\]: l11
st21 [1d\]: ?
]
;B[kd]BL[1852.477]
;W[lh]WL[2398.205]C[gogonuts [4d\]: s8 was unhappy for w
st21 [1d\]: g18 not alive too =)
uranium123 [?\]: I think four handi maybe resonable...
]
;B[mc]BL[1830.115]
;W[nj]WL[2395.448]C[st21 [1d\]: w will lose there
]
;B[mi]BL[1815.611]
;W[qm]WL[2393.516]C[st21 [1d\]: but... bot can start stupid moves
uranium123 [?\]: B tries to remove the bad aji...
gogonuts [4d\]: w almost defeated, but not quite yet
]
;B[rm]BL[1793.57]
;W[ol]WL[2392.694]C[martin3141 [3d\]: I don't see white winning unless something magically happens in the center
]
;B[mj]BL[1784.662]
;W[pk]WL[2388.545]C[oliu321: Is white cleaning up his modd? Or there is an evil plan?
]
;B[qj]BL[1775.992]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: live inside ^^
uranium123 [?\]: that seems quite impossible...
blurb: w not prepared for bots myo style maybe didnt even bother to play a traing game
alumina [6d\]: b s7 seems correct move.
]
;W[mk]WL[2379.749]C[gogonuts [4d\]: thats a funny "unless" :-)
]
;B[lk]BL[1765.624]
;W[po]WL[2373.556]C[Peyote [1d\]: w will win
gogonuts [4d\]: no
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: just pray for w
Nobato [4k\]: b won
gogonuts [4d\]: zen is letting w live
]
;B[pn]BL[1736.625]C[CBlue [1d?\]: nice thinking break here? oO
]
;W[op]WL[2371.755]C[CBlue [1d?\]: ..
gogonuts [4d\]: its within the budget now
st21 [1d\]: ))
]
;B[on]BL[1727.328]
;W[qn]WL[2371.035]C[ajahuang [6d\]: N17 was a bit slow
oliu321: w is pretty much alive
martin3141 [3d\]: next ko coming up
]
;B[rn]BL[1717.488]
;W[om]WL[2370.084]C[ajahuang [6d\]: should play at center
martin3141 [3d\]: or not x)
]
;B[nn]BL[1708.641]C[zmiei [19k?\]: b didn't play engough honte he pays the price
CBlue [1d?\]: n8? :-s
ARPAnet [?\]: q6 was good
kik [4k\]: o9 ?
Nobato [4k\]: lol
Peyote [1d\]: b will win
]
;W[mn]WL[2328.771]C[gogonuts [4d\]: w needs life *and* sente :-)
]
;B[ml]BL[1695.575]C[st21 [1d\]: and points and aji
Peyote [1d\]: thats the tragedy
]
;W[nk]WL[2322.411]C[Koffein [-\]: w needs life, sente, and luck^^
]
;B[mm]BL[1683.21]
;W[lj]WL[2315.254]C[st21 [1d\]: lucky!!
]
;B[li]BL[1674.224]
;W[no]WL[2313.367]C[oliu321: beautiful
uranium123 [?\]: Hamete...
Peyote [1d\]: lucky sente life?
maidguy: haha
]
;B[ln]BL[1655.597]C[gogonuts [4d\]: not beautiful enough
]
;W[mo]WL[2311.129]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: skill..
st21 [1d\]: o7
]
;B[nm]BL[1638.716]C[uranium123 [?\]: m10?
]
;W[ll]WL[2307.93]C[verysober [?\]: w gave b a 6h ?
CBlue [1d?\]: b is gonna M7 ^^
]
;B[kj]BL[1630.088]
;W[oj]WL[2306.932]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: 9p
CBlue [1d?\]: aw
maidguy: alive
dantes1 [12k?\]: i think the comp needed to play more aggressively in the opening to have a chance. ie. try invasions. it played like it had a losing position against another comp and just tried to defend as best it could
BOThater36 [4d\]: sente live
Garfield10 [1k\]: nice
]
;B[jc]BL[1616.727]C[ajahuang [6d\]: impressive
zmiei [19k?\]: Xd
ajahuang [6d\]: but still losing
]
;W[cg]WL[2291.884]C[verysober [?\]: w hasn t won against b yet
gogonuts [4d\]: w got everything except sente :-)
cdocdo [3k\]: but impressive..!
verysober [?\]: and they played loads!!!
zmiei [19k?\]: b should play honte moves
]
;B[cf]BL[1605.368]C[meumi [14k\]: could we know winrate now? gghideki
]
;W[bh]WL[2282.811]C[zmiei [19k?\]: c14 is good
uranium123 [?\]: W only uses 7 min!
]
;B[ci]BL[1596.435]
;W[dg]WL[2281.801]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: ithink more than 80% winrate
]
;B[bg]BL[1587.865]C[st21 [1d\]: and what?
]
;W[eb]WL[2280.53]
;B[db]BL[1577.015]
;W[fa]WL[2279.652]
;B[hc]BL[1567.864]C[pkunzip [2d\]: fire...
cdocdo [3k\]: W is amazingly fast....!!
]
;W[bf]WL[2274.708]C[gogonuts [4d\]: ouch
st21 [1d\]: c17 soon
]
;B[ah]BL[1559.314]
;W[cd]WL[2273.115]C[gogonuts [4d\]: w can see his own fate
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: w cluster super computer.
]
;B[be]BL[1550.622]C[ajahuang [6d\]: oops
]
;W[cc]WL[2270.998]
;B[dc]BL[1540.521]
;W[cb]WL[2269.57]C[verysober [?\]: nice
ajahuang [6d\]: capture half
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: hoho that work ^^
ajahuang [6d\]: E15
BOThater36 [4d\]: P11, B die?
cdocdo [3k\]: amazing
st21 [1d\]: e15
]
;B[de]BL[1523.191]
;W[da]WL[2268.258]C[verysober [?\]: w about 6d possibly
zmiei [19k?\]: d15
alumina [6d\]: b a18
]
;B[lm]BL[1509.829]C[st21 [1d\]: g15
gogonuts [4d\]: w is 9p, fyi
ajahuang [6d\]: oh I miscount
]
;W[nl]WL[2266.029]C[go1986 [11k\]: 9p
]
;B[oi]BL[1501.154]C[Suphyph [7k?\]: is this Chou 9p?
gogonuts [4d\]: y
verysober [?\]: why ppl say he 9p
verysober [?\]: w lost to bot on 9by9
]
;W[mq]WL[2248.903]C[gogonuts [4d\]: get sober
st21 [1d\]: w still not lost
]
;B[lq]BL[1492.605]C[Peyote [1d\]: ;-)
]
;W[lp]WL[2245.812]C[st21 [1d\]: but
]
;B[mr]BL[1484.092]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: Zen is 9P+0.5
]
;W[np]WL[2244.94]C[st21 [1d\]: pros strong in yose
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: in 9x9
zmiei [19k?\]: w is cheese with many holes
]
;B[lr]BL[1475.499]
;W[pb]WL[2243.796]C[zmiei [19k?\]: i mean b
]
;B[bd]BL[1466.966]
;W[hb]WL[2241.648]C[uranium123 [?\]: ha
]
;B[ib]BL[1452.122]
;W[gc]WL[2240.612]C[hvfun: who is whit?
]
;B[nb]BL[1443.775]C[hvfun: white?
]
;W[oc]WL[2234.166]C[meumi [14k\]: 9x9 go is almost solved game for bot
gogonuts [4d\]: 9p
Mikuro [2d\]: Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
]
;B[od]BL[1435.123]
;W[ob]WL[2233.411]C[cdocdo [3k\]: Chou 9p
]
;B[mb]BL[1426.536]
;W[hd]WL[2232.141]C[hvfun: i see
hvfun: thanks
]
;B[id]BL[1416.045]C[st21 [1d\]: w already know who winner is
]
;W[cr]WL[2225.032]C[oliu321: now it's black who tastes bad
gogonuts [4d\]: w is playing a great game, but its not enough
]
;B[dq]BL[1407.626]
;W[hg]WL[2222.506]C[verysober [?\]: moves like c2 i will never comprehend
verysober [?\]: seems so small
verysober [?\]: to me
]
;B[hh]BL[1399.228]C[oliu321: see whether there is chance to chuqi
]
;W[gf]WL[2220.472]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: 6h to much .. maybe 5
zmiei [19k?\]: w is playing tesuji tesuji tesuj
]
;B[gh]BL[1390.407]
;W[ic]WL[2217.012]
;B[je]BL[1381.891]
;W[nr]WL[2214.815]C[fyzqxm [5d\]: 黑棋还是好啊
]
;B[lo]BL[1373.478]C[ail [-\]: c2 huge, sente yose after too
]
;W[jb]WL[2209.386]
;B[oa]BL[1364.876]
;W[qb]WL[2207.556]
;B[kb]BL[1356.12]
;W[ia]WL[2205.279]
;B[if]BL[1347.558]
;W[hf]WL[2203.873]C[ajahuang [6d\]: Zen keeps losing points
st21 [1d\]: b17
]
;B[bc]BL[1339.168]C[verysober [?\]: needs to reduce centre
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: wow..
pkunzip [2d\]: ko creater.........
]
;W[rj]WL[2196.758]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: I lose my 100 dollars
gogonuts [4d\]: but the way hes losing them doesnt feel good for w ...
]
;B[rk]BL[1330.693]C[uranium123 [?\]: oh
]
;W[sj]WL[2194.944]C[ajahuang [6d\]: but hater is still losing his money
]
;B[kp]BL[1322.023]C[martin3141 [3d\]: it's funny nobody comments on manyfaces' game
Slayan [5k\]: what did you bet?
pkunzip [2d\]: hater36,you lose
zmiei [19k?\]: b is intimidated
gghideki [2k\]: 93%
]
;W[ms]WL[2185.933]C[go1986 [11k\]: wow
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: wow
gogonuts [4d\]: no, b is counting his cash
]
;B[ig]BL[1313.349]C[ARPAnet [?\]: over
]
;W[ls]WL[2182.142]C[pkunzip [2d\]: i think B win
ajahuang [6d\]: this is no way to reserve
uranium123 [?\]: B is convinced to win...
]
;B[kr]BL[1304.885]
;W[ds]WL[2179.765]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: 93 ////
go1986 [11k\]: i cant belive this
]
;B[es]BL[1296.483]C[ARPAnet [?\]: you mean reverse, aja?
]
;W[cs]WL[2174.855]C[zmiei [19k?\]: w will win with 0,5
]
;B[gr]BL[1288.007]C[krs [5k\]: l2 is so wise
]
;W[bb]WL[2168.435]
;B[ab]BL[1279.12]
;W[ac]WL[2166.866]C[gogonuts [4d\]: ws problem is that b ran out of problems
]
;B[ad]BL[1270.654]
;W[fk]WL[2165.011]C[oliu321: indeed
uranium123 [?\]: good commments...
]
;B[gk]BL[1262.172]
;W[fj]WL[2163.332]
;B[ei]BL[1253.184]C[gghideki [2k\]: haha
]
;W[bk]WL[2156.895]
;B[ks]BL[1244.738]
;W[ns]WL[2154.453]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: how can a machine never play a kyu move at all during a game against 9 dan pro?
gghideki [2k\]: 96%
ajahuang [6d\]: but strange that w is playing so fast
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: i thinks top ama gain bot will much interesting.. ^^
]
;B[eh]BL[1236.088]C[ajahuang [6d\]: why Chao 9p plays so fast?
]
;W[gj]WL[2152.43]
;B[hj]BL[1227.385]C[verysober [?\]: i zee now why w didn't just play f9
]
;W[pa]WL[2151.5]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: chou multicore
ajahuang [6d\]: he used only 10 mins
cdocdo [3k\]: 96%?? OMG
Mikuro [2d\]: Actually I'm quite impressed that a pro can make it this close against a KGS 4d with SIX STONES
]
;B[ka]BL[1218.688]C[krs [5k\]: n4 sente now
]
;W[na]WL[2148.901]C[gghideki [2k\]: one more game?
gogonuts [4d\]: because he sees his fate, and doesnt want to prolong it :-)
ajahuang [6d\]: oh
]
;B[ja]BL[1210.089]
;W[ib]WL[2146.89]C[kevinwm [2k\]: yes - n4 soon
]
;B[sp]BL[1201.425]
;W[mp]WL[2144.336]C[Koffein [-\]: aja: why should white think at all at handicap games? whatever you play, if your opponent plays the right sequence, you lose
go1986 [11k\]: yeah a 9p should beat a kgs 4 dan with 6 stones
]
;B[oo]BL[1192.758]
;W[pp]WL[2142.898]
;B[ce]BL[1183.897]
;W[ca]WL[2140.158]C[gogonuts [4d\]: 4d is favorite on 6
ARPAnet [?\]: Zen is a strong kgs 4d
]
;B[kl]BL[1175.14]C[zmiei [19k?\]: b19 !!
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: i think in 5 games w will win 3-2 again zen19s
]
;W[he]WL[2136.969]C[Backflash [10k\]: is it?
uranium123 [?\]: W's tesuji is impressive...
]
;B[ie]BL[1166.503]
;W[sq]WL[2136.006]
;B[so]BL[1157.691]C[gghideki [2k\]: really
]
;W[sk]WL[2135.147]C[gogonuts [4d\]: L8 . hater, you have to pay
BOThater36 [4d\]: 4 dan KGS should favor, but not as convencing as Zen did
ajahuang [6d\]: Koffein, why you call me aja? I am ajahuang :)
]
;B[sl]BL[1148.772]
;W[ee]WL[2130.521]
;B[ma]BL[1140.088]
;W[oa]WL[2127.955]C[verysober [?\]: once you understand the bot...it's easy to win
]
;B[md]BL[1131.163]
;W[fm]WL[2125.296]C[Koffein [-\]: i´m lazy, that´s why
BOThater36 [4d\]: in even game level
]
;B[do]BL[1122.357]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: not again Zen
]
;W[fo]WL[2123.101]C[martin3141 [3d\]: even in handicap game you can try to make the best out of it
]
;B[er]BL[1113.388]C[no9736 [6k\]: ZenTCGA 9d?
gghideki [2k\]: 9p
kevinwm [2k\]: e2??
]
;W[ea]WL[2112.398]C[gogonuts [4d\]: the handicap opening improvement is paying off for zen
Suphyph [7k?\]: maybe he will play inside to win on time :p
Goreon [2d\]: pro always has sente it seems
]
;B[aa]BL[1104.447]
;W[ba]WL[2109.129]
;B[ac]BL[1095.233]
;W[ai]WL[2108.062]C[verysober [?\]: ncie yosue
ajahuang [6d\]: how many points?
kevinwm [2k\]: a11???
]
;B[af]BL[1086.156]C[gogonuts [4d\]: so the rating thievery on kgs with wrong handicaps had an upside too :-)
BOThater36 [4d\]: b + 25
]
;W[aj]WL[2106.363]C[kevinwm [2k\]: -1/2 pt
]
;B[ed]BL[1076.871]
;W[di]WL[2104.785]C[gogonuts [4d\]: programmers had to pay more attention to handicap games
]
;B[ej]BL[1067.706]
;W[go]WL[2103.965]C[uranium123 [?\]: how do you think abut the 5 handi games?
]
;B[ek]BL[1058.441]C[ajahuang [6d\]: around 10 points
]
;W[ni]WL[2101.904]C[uranium123 [?\]: about
ajahuang [6d\]: if I count correctly
gghideki [2k\]: I'm paying but not so easy to improve, gogonuts
]
;B[]BL[1056.896]C[Slayan [5k\]: I don't like to know pros are loosing against bots even if it's with 6 stones handi
]
;W[]WL[2101.185]TW[ga][ha][qa][ra][sa][fb][rb][sb][hc][rc][sc][gd][rd][sd][fe][ge][re][se][sf][rg][sg][sh][ri][si][ok][al][pl][am][gm][bn][ao][aq][nq][oq][qq][br][or][rr][sr][as][bs][os][ps][qs][rs][ss]TB[la][lb][kc][lc][jd][ld][ae][le][me][ne][bf][jf][kf][lf][mf][nf][ag][kg][lg][mg][ng][og][bh][fh][ih][jh][kh][lh][hi][ii][ji][ki][ij][jj][lj][ik][jk][kk][il][jl][ll][jm][km][sm][jn][kn][sn][ko][ep][eq][fq][gq][iq][jq][kq][fr][hr][jr][fs][gs][hs][is][js]C[KGSPlayer [-\]: (((((((((((((((((
uranium123 [?\]: gg
meumi [14k\]: wow
Peyote [1d\]: o
ajahuang [6d\]: congratulations to Zen!!!!
verysober [?\]: If w doesn't die
ZenAuthor [-\]: thanks for the game
verysober [?\]: he could win
BOThater36 [4d\]: my bad day
ARPAnet [?\]: won by a huge margin
fyzqxm [5d\]: good
verysober [?\]: shame about m13
gghideki [2k\]: Thank you very much for playing, Chou 9p
cdocdo [3k\]: ( ; _ ; ) noo....
gogonuts [4d\]: good game by w, convincing win by b
go1986 [11k\]: wow
kgsjutsu [6k?\]: thanks for the game
])[/sgf-full]

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 Post subject: Re: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
Post #2 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:33 am 
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wow I'm speechless

zen was undefeated congrats to the zen team :clap: ,

its amazing

IMO:

a 9p should be 6 stones stronger than a 4d
but what do i know
but i guess that's about the right handicap considering the outcome

its not that big of a gap between amateurs and pros,
a 4d taking 6 stones against a 9p just doesn't sound right to me
maybe a 1p then it would make since...

but hey life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get

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 Post subject: Re: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
Post #3 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:57 am 
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As far as I know a good 5D EGF can compete with a professional player on three stones. So what is KGS 4D (although Zen19S is almost 5D with a win ratio of 67%)? Maybe 3D/4D EGF? So I think six stones would be a bit too much. But then again, bots are far more stable in their strength and won't compromise in a difficult situation, which often occurs in handicap games.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
Post #4 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:00 am 
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I'm talking specifically about 9p

But ugot a point I guess pro ranks ain't what they use to be. I assume a 9p can give at least 4 stones to 4p and win. Let alone a 4 Dan KGS

Now a days pro is pro.

But 9dan is the highest grade a pro can achieve any amateurs rank shouldn't be a issue with proper handicap 9 Dan should win

You have to be a good 5 Dan to play a 9p with 3 stones

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 Post subject: Re: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
Post #5 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:15 am 
Tengen

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SoDesuNe wrote:
As far as I know a good 5D EGF can compete with a professional player on three stones.
One data point: http://www.361points.com/blog/tag/ama-vs-pro/

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 Post subject: Re: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
Post #6 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:34 am 
Gosei
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1986 wrote:
I'm talking specifically about 9p

But ugot a point I guess pro ranks ain't what they use to be. I assume a 9p can give at least 4 stones to 4p and win. Let alone a 4 Dan KGS

Now a days pro is pro.

But 9dan is the highest grade a pro can achieve any amateurs rank shouldn't be a issue with proper handicap 9 Dan should win

You have to be a good 5 Dan to play a 9p with 3 stones



I don't think a 9p can give 4H to any other pro. There is - in my opinion - maybe one stone difference between being awarded a 1p and a 9p. And no I don't talk about the players, who go in the west to teach and thus become weaker or the ones who don't focus all their live on being a professional Go player.
What I mean is, I don't think Iyama Yuta is now eight stones stronger compared to his beginning Go career.


hyperpape
Yes, that kind of underlines my thesis ^^ Quite a few games ended because Black lost a big group, all the other games were pretty close. Now one can argue about the relative strength of Zen19S and human players. I don't know how Zen19S calculates Life-and-Death and if he frequently loses (handicap) games by getting killed, too. But as far as I know, a lack of reading skill is the first thing pros notice when playing against western players (and over-agressivess ^^).
By the way, can someone transcribe the time-limits of the games behind hyperpape's link? I think they are quite fast, aren't they?

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 Post subject: Re: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
Post #7 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:52 pm 
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What we need to keep in mind is that not all that long ago (just a few years) many folks were saying they didn't think any of these programs could get to the point of being able to beat a pro even with nine stones.

PS -- What did you think of the style of play? If you didn't already know, enough to conclude "that can't be a humn, must be a bot." Or was it close enough to how a human might have played to pass that test?

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 Post subject: Re: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
Post #8 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:00 pm 
Tengen

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SoDesuNe wrote:
hyperpape
Yes, that kind of underlines my thesis
I don't think this is does. These are European 6 dans, and they struggle on 3 stones. You'd expect the 5 dans to need 4 stones.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
Post #9 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Mike Novack wrote:
What we need to keep in mind is that not all that long ago (just a few years) many folks were saying they didn't think any of these programs could get to the point of being able to beat a pro even with nine stones.

PS -- What did you think of the style of play? If you didn't already know, enough to conclude "that can't be a humn, must be a bot." Or was it close enough to how a human might have played to pass that test?


I think the nature of handicap games make the usual bot style of play look a lot more natural. The bots love moyos and attacking and that fits the handicap games nicely.

But also I think this game Zen played quite nicely, there were not so many terrible looking "bot moves", such as pointless sentes.

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