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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #101 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:04 am 
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Tygem: 커비라고해
gowan wrote:
Araban pointed out a good move for Black that topazg apparently didn't see. It seem that ez4u did see it, though, and didn't play the way topazg expected. So topazg feels he was "let off". Hasn't that sort of thing happened to us all? We read out (mistakenly) that we would be in trouble if our opponent played a certain move but our opponent sees a refutation of the move that we didn't see and doesn't play it. We then, confusedly, heave a sigh of relief.


This type of thing happens to me sometimes. Last week around Thursday, I think, I played a game where my opponent resigned after a big fight in the middle. I thought that he had a move that would let his group be free - and that it would be a close game after that.

When the game had finished, I was typing something along the lines of, "Thanks for playing. It seems like I'm in trouble if you play <some coordinate>, though". But, my opponent left before I had finished typing.

When I reviewed the game, it turns out that the "refutation" that I had thought of didn't really work, and my opponent had seen this, whereas I had not.

Sometimes in situations like this, when I do win, I really wonder if I deserved it.

It also makes me wonder if I should keep trying to play when I feel the situation is hopeless... It's hard for me to say.

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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #102 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:27 pm 
Oza
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This leaves me with the fewest weaknesses in this area. I assume Black wants to tenuki next to play on the left. At that point we will have to assess the board as a whole. I have not really been doing that recently.

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #103 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:31 pm 
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@ez4u:
I think that your :w66: is an example of a move that takes away weakness in the area. It feels like a good and honest move.

I feel that I have difficult consciously deciding to make just about any move that I fear might end in gote (unless it clearly has to do with a local life & death scenario, perhaps).

What gives you the mindset to sometimes take gote in order to get a thick position?

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #104 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:03 pm 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok, there's my move. Time to take a big risk, and put the ball completely in Dave's court. Basically, I've got more cash than he has, and I'm trying to make sure it stays that way, even though the flipside is his central potential will be way bigger than mine. In honesty, I wanted all of these:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X a X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . 7 . . . O . d . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . 7 . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . b . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However, I can't get them. The one in the lower right is big as it prevents his "save my stone-uji" and minimises any value that he can get from his thickness. It's a lot bigger than it looks. The middle upper one prevents him from cutting me completely with "a", and so it's big from that perspective too, especially as I fear "a" may be sente. The lower left fixes some of my problems in that area completely, and after he takes "b" I get to take "c" and I'm completely settled with central access. I can't afford to take "b" instead, because the damage to my two stones on the left is huge. The top left I chose because it's huge, and he can eat my single stone at G17 and make a big corner all in one move if I don't do something soon, so I figure it's just about big and urgent enough to pip the others. "d" I just included as a connection tesuji for my right hand side that I hope to get one day, but it's gote and basically just relatively big endgame.

Game on, let's see if I die big somewhere :)
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #105 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:18 pm 
Gosei
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@Topazg
1) What sequence are you anticipating top left? (3-3 invasions tend to be pretty established, right?)

2) What do you expect in bottom left, afterward/later?

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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #106 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:06 pm 
Gosei
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Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Opening Problem #502:
Take the global situation into account! Where should Black play? Hint: It's either a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, or n.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . f . i . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . a e . j B . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . c b O . k W W . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . h . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . g d . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . l . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . m . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . n . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
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Post #107 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:18 pm 
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Araban,
L ( :b1:) looks good to me. After this, the two 3-3 (a) and (n) are miai, and this helps make sure W's center will not be big at all.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . a . . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . n . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #108 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:46 pm 
Lives in gote
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I totally agree with Ed, that's what I was thinking. Topazg seems to viewing those two middle stones as light, since he can just dive into the corner if white splits. It seems to me though that that is def. not a good trade for black, since white's thickness then comes alive.

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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #109 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:58 pm 
Oza
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . 8 O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This seems automatic. I rather expected topazg to settle the left side stones first. To my eye they seem a bigger issue. However, my eyes are notoriously weak when peering at the Go board. :blackeye: Let's see how things develop here.

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #110 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:00 pm 
Gosei
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Isn't Araban's 'l' directly often an underplay? Though I guess it's looking to the top left where white might make a concession in the bottom left if m-ish is played.

Edit; oh, some kind of miai thinking, yeah, too hard for me.

Edit 2: In a timed game, I would surely have played 'm'.

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Offline EdLee
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Post #111 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:12 pm 
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Jedo, Loons, Araban,
I completely missed something. J( :b1:) was big. Because if W turns at (w) first, the entire :bc: group is not alive.
And if B replies to W(w) with something like (x) in gote, W gets too much cash in sente.
So J( :b1:) makes sure :bc: is alive and takes way W's cash at the same time.
Loons is right that W(y) is not very severe; B can just connect under with (z).
Also, W's center is small anyway, thanks to :bs:.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . B O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X w . . . . B O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . , B . B O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . x . B O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . B O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B . B O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . z y . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . # . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , # . O # . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #112 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:13 pm 
Oza
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Kirby wrote:
@ez4u:
I think that your :w66: is an example of a move that takes away weakness in the area. It feels like a good and honest move.

I feel that I have difficult consciously deciding to make just about any move that I fear might end in gote (unless it clearly has to do with a local life & death scenario, perhaps).

What gives you the mindset to sometimes take gote in order to get a thick position?

First of all, I do not think that I have that mind set. Rather, I normally suffer from the same problem that you have. :rambo: I constantly think that if I don't keep sente, my opponent will suddenly take over and leap into the lead. This is very strange because in actually practice it is far more common that my opponent wins by taking advantage of all the weaknesses that I leave scattered around the board. Alternatively, they show a superior understanding of the overall situation and ignore one of my "sente" plays. :blackeye:

Fundamentally though, I think we need some assessment of the overall situation on the board. That includes some idea of how exploitable the weaknesses in our positions are. If we leave behind so many or such grievous weaknesses that our opponent can torment us all around the board, we've actually accomplished nothing.

In the game situation, the situation on the right side is very complex. Consider the types of things that are enabled or disabled by various plays...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X c X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . f . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . d 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X b O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White would like to connect on the right side around "a" while Black would like to connect underneath. White would like to cut at "b" and either push down toward the bottom or atari, depending on the situation. White is also interested in "c"; consider it's effect if White captures the S17 stone. Before :w6: there are two peeps for Black at "d" and "e". The alternatives to :w6: would leave Black more opportunities to exploit. Black would like to push in from the top to split White in two and/or push up from the bottom to erase the center. If White is weak, the opportunities fall to Black. If White is strong, the reverse tends to happen.

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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #113 Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:22 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm69 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X 1 2 . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Let me know if you disagree with :w70: :)

I'll respond fully later loons, but I was kind of expecting White to block from the other side for some reason (I think I was a bit antsy about my top group), and I was expecting one of the basic 2 possibilities (standard invasion or the double hane - particularly here, I can see White playing the double hane now, although it does give me useful aji).

One thing I'm trying to remember is whether this is dead or not, if my single stone at G17 disappears:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 3 4 . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X X O 2 X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . 6 O O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I guess we'll see
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #114 Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:46 am 
Oza
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KGS: ez4u
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm69 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X X 2 . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . O O 4 . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I will agree.

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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #115 Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:46 am 
Honinbo
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topazg wrote:
whether this is dead or not, if my single stone at (a) disappears:
Dead.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . 7 . 4 . 3 . .
$$ | 6 . . . X X O .
$$ | 5 2 X X O O a .
$$ | . 1 O O . . O O
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #116 Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:53 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4511
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


One more problem fixed. Because of G17, he can't kill from here unless I'm hugely mistaken, which means now I just have to address the lower left group, and then we can do some counting.

Loons, I'd expected him to block the other side, simply because a sequence like this is sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X 2 . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . 5 4 6 . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X 8 X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'd considered both side blocking sequences for the following before playing the 3-3:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X 2 . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . 0 3 O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . 5 4 8 . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 7 . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 0 . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X 2 . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . 5 4 . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 6 . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . 8 . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X 2 . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X 2 . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . 5 4 8 . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 7 0 . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I couldn't read a single line with White blocking at C16 that didn't leave me with semi-sente, so I think I'm happy enough here. I want all of a->d below, although "b" is the move I want asap. I need to read if White can let the corner go in exchange for even more outside thickness - if he can, maybe I should play "e", but White will be able to get a very big corner that way.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X a . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . e . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . c . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . b . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . d . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #117 Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:07 am 
Gosei
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Rank: 4d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B 1 . . . B . B O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . B B O . B . . . . . B O . X O X . |
$$ | . . O O O . O O . , B . B O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . B O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . B O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . B O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I would have prefered this :b1: personally. Then, unless I'm missing something, all the marked black stones are linked together.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #118 Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:22 am 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Some further thoughts:

Part of the reason I chose this move was because it largely neutralises the upper middle quadrant

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 9 . 5 O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 7 6 . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . 8 , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


when compared to the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 3 . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X X O . X 5 . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X 4 X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The other part is, of course, it gets me two eyes. The other thing I'm really concerned about now is the area around M10 which is so easily White points now. I need to come up with an interesting reduction strategy. Another purpose behind my latest move is that the following two marked White groups now have a bit of aji to aim at (albeit not much), with cutting points and the like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X W X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X W . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . W W W . . . W X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W W X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . W X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #119 Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:47 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1589
Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
And some more thoughts:

My lower left plans are complicated. Now I've got :b73: in, I feel I can try something like this if White wedges:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm75 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , b . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | 8 1 W 5 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . 2 3 . 9 . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . 7 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . a . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


"a" and "b" are miai to settle, and the centre is largely neutralised. The other hane probably goes something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm75 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 2 3 b . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | 0 C W 5 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . 4 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . 9 X 8 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . a . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black can then take "a", and the ladder at "b" doesn't work, so this looks ok too.

Which means, presumably, that White won't play this way. Either way, White's probably going to do this first:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm75 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 X 2 . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . 7 X X O 4 X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . 5 O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Exciting game!
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #120 Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:28 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9552
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Araban wrote:
Opening Problem #502:
Take the global situation into account! Where should Black play? Hint: It's either a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, or n.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . f . i . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . a e . j B . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . c b O . k W W . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . h . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . g d . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . l . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . m . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . n . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Considering the marked black stones, I kind of like "m" more than "l", which feels slightly weird to me.

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