127. ez4u vs topazg

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:55 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . | $$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . | $$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O O O X . X X O O . . . 3 . O X . . | $$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . . . O X X . . | $$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . . . X X 1 2 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:24 pm

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:37 pm

Charge of the light brigade is such a good poem. We've even got our own little valley of death.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . | $$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . | $$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X @ @ . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X @ X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X @ . . X . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . X . . @ @ @ . . . @ X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . @ @ X . | $$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . @ X . . | $$ | . O O O X . X X @ @ . . . 3 . @ X . . | $$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . . . @ X X . . | $$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . @ . . . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . . . X X 1 2 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How many will make it back?

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:32 pm

@EdLee

jts · Post by **jts** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:10 pm

@hyperpape

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cBm121 $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O O O X . X X O O . . . # @ O X . . | $$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . . . @ # X . . | $$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . . . B X Y @ O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . @ @ X O @ Y O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . O , B O O X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As they say, you shouldn't play close to thickness. This sort of broken shape is an extreme case of playing close to thickness.

The bad effects of a broken shape don't depend on order of play. In general you get a broken shape because you play two stones and then, due to some miscalculations, are forced to permit the opponent to play two consecutive moves, breaking the shape. In this case, there was already a white wall in place, but unfortunate circumstances compel topazg to play kikashi next to the wall.

Whichever move order creates the broken shape, the immediate sequence which creates the broken shape may be best for both sides, but the situation which necessitates the broken shape is bad for the side that is saddled with the broken shape. (It's the same with empty triangles. [Made-up numbers ahead.] 60% of the time, empty triangles are played by beginners who don't know any better. 35% of the time, the third stone in the empty triangle is necessary, but the sequence leading up to the empty triangle was somehow suboptimal. 5% of the time, the empty triangle is genuinely a great move.)

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:11 pm

hyperpape,

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:45 pm

@EdLee Thanks.

@jts

jts · Post by **jts** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:43 pm

hyperpape wrote:
I think the way order of moves matters is in what it tells you. If you play out a sequence, and end with a broken shape, that is a cost of the sequence. In this case, two of the three broken shapes were there because black played forcing moves against white, but the broken shape was made along with a stone that had been on the board for a long time. You can't say that's the broken shape is a cost of the present sequence.

I don't think the order of the moves matters a huge amount.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cBm121 $$ | . . . . . $$ | . O . . . $$ | . X X . . $$ | . . O . . $$ | . . . . . $$ | . . . . . $$ | . . X . . $$ | . O X O . $$ | . . X . . $$ | . . . . . $$ | . . . . .[/go]

No matter what order the stones were played in, black's stones are intrinsically working together more efficiently. He can help all of his stones without harming the others, and they share liberties. White, on the other hand, can only help one stone, leaving the other to its fate. I don't think the order of the moves matters a great deal. There's no order you can play them in that will make the white stones share liberties. On a related note:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cBm121 $$ | . . . . . $$ | . W . . . $$ | . X X . . $$ | . . X . . $$ | . . X . . $$ | . . X . . $$ | . . X . . $$ | . . X W . $$ | . . X . . $$ | . . . . . $$ | . . . . .[/go]

We'd all agree that the :wc:

stones are in an awful place. W really shouldn't have played them so close to thickness. But walls don't spring out of nowhere.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cBm121 $$ | . . . . . $$ | . O . . . $$ | . B X . . $$ | . W X . . $$ | . O X . . $$ | . O X . . $$ | . O X . . $$ | . W B O . $$ | . O X . . $$ | . O . . . $$ | . . . . .[/go]

It's most likely that the wall which W suddenly needs to play close to was formed in an exchange where each side got a string of stones. So analyzing broken shape, playing close to thickness, and the efficiency of the :bc:

stones in the marked pairs seems to me to be closely related, and all very important. But what do I know?

(Of course, this is different from when a beginner plays a pre-peeped jump, and immediately gets a broken shape. There, to see that he's using his stones inefficiently, he has to read two moves ahead. When I get broken shape, normally there are multi-pronged threats and ataris involved. I could see that I was using my stones inefficiently if I could read 5 moves ahead. To predict that a territory-influence exchange will result in a need to play kikashi stones adjacent to the wall to make life for a weak group requires much stronger reading, but it's fundamentally the same kind of analysis: the moves I'm playing here eventually become inefficient, so I shouldn't play here.)

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:55 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . | $$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . | $$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O O O X . X X O O . . . 3 4 O X . . | $$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . . . O X X . . | $$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . . . X X 1 2 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Graham, I accept and connect.

Fundamentally I think that the :b21:

/

exchange helps White by creating future shortage of liberty problems for the Black stones. That said, the situation looks very tense to me. I expect Black to continue at :b1:

below...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . | $$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . | $$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . e X . X O . . X . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . X . d O O O . 4 5 O X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . 7 1 6 O O X . | $$ | . . X , O X X . . , c . 3 2 . O X . . | $$ | . O O O X . X X O O b . 8 X W O X . . | $$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . a . O X X . . | $$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . . . X X X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now what? My first thought was "a" (actually I also considered simply "a" without connecting at the marked stone - if Black cut, White could push up in sente and easily trade the five stones for the whole center. However, Black does not have to cut immediately and the situation is just too complex to figure out. My current expectation is to answer :b1:

with

etc. and cut at :w8:

. I am not sure what Black will choose next. Note that Black "b" threatens to connect to the left by capturing my two stones. I pretty much have to answer around "c" to keep things going (The patzer's lament, "If only I had traded "d" for "e" earlier!" :scratch:

I honestly do not know what happens here, but it seems unlikely that we will need to play out the yose. :rambo:

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:11 pm

@jts

perceval · Post by **perceval** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:54 pm

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:12 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . | $$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . | $$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . 5 . O O X . | $$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O O O X . X X O O . . . X O O X . . | $$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . . . O X X . . | $$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . . . X X X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The finale approaches. I chose against the other move because I think this makes me cry a little:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . | $$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . | $$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . 6 . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O O O X . X X O O 5 . . X O O X . . | $$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . . . O X X . . | $$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . . . X X X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:37 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . | $$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . | $$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . O O X . | $$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O O O X . X X O O . . . X O O X . . | $$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . 6 . O X X . . | $$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . . . X X X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was back and forth in my mind all day yesterday over what to play here. I still have no clue what is best. I went back to this :w6:

because I think it is less complex.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . | $$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . | $$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . O O X . | $$ | . . X , O X X . . , a . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O O O X . X X O O 4 . . X O O X . . | $$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . 1 . O X X . . | $$ | . O X . X . O X X b . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . 3 2 X X X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Basically I concluded that Black probably escapes or lives while White captures a couple of stones in order to connect and live. Next I expect Black to exchange :b2:

for

and then play :b4:

. I do not think I have time to answer :b4:

with "a", my right side is too weak. I probably need to secure my connection while Black captures the two center White stones. If Black plays at "b" instead of :b4:

, I will not answer it. This leaves the possibility that Black will capture :w3:

in sente and end up living in the center. That is OK as long as I am safe as well.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:07 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . | $$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . | $$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . O O X . | $$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O O O X . X X O O a . c X O O X . . | $$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . 6 d O X X . . | $$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . . b X X X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Considering one of these. I think "c" and "d" are just foolish, as I don't have time to attack the right side yet. "a" looks like the most logical way of making miai of building strength and escaping, but I need to read whether I can get "b" in first - I think I can, but if it's not sente I'm in a lot of trouble.

The purpose of getting "b" isn't to kill the 4 white stones of course, it's to up the liberties and shape of my own 4 to make his right side group suffer and squirm for a little bit longer.

I wondered if Dave would play this move

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:25 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . | $$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . | $$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . O O X . | $$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O O O X . X X O O . . . X O O X . . | $$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . O . O X X . . | $$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . . 7 X X X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Oh well, this is, as the professionals say, "looking for a place to resign". The loss at the bottom is big enough that unless I kill something, I'm about 15 points behind going into to yose - if Dave gets sente _as well_, I'm going to resign. If I get sente instead, I'll play out my sente endgame, and count, and unless I'm 5 points behind or better, I'll resign when he takes sente back.

I decided on this move because the shape here for my 4 stones sucks enormously because of the marked White stone, so I really have no choice if I want any belief that the fight isn't over yet:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . | $$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . | $$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . O O X . | $$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O O O X . X X O O 7 . . X O O X . . | $$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . W . O X X . . | $$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X X . . O . O . . 8 X X X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

127. ez4u vs topazg

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

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Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg