Posts: 4511 Location: Chatteris, UK Liked others: 1589 Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Thanks Ed, I wondered about that. I suppose because I'd worried about him playing E17 already, I didn't want to encourage him to play again in that area until I'd decided what I wanted to do in the corner itself. You are right though, once he's responded where I did, continuing is the only consistent choice really
nice game, very interesting i found it funny how in his comments ez4u always seems to let topazg conduct the game: "we ll see what it chooses from that " etc.. and topazg comments were also along the line "i want that, i ll do that" ... it gives the impression (probably just an impression based on comment style) that ez4u just waited for topazg to stumble on the road
_________________ In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
Posts: 2414 Location: Tokyo, Japan Liked others: 2351 Was liked: 1332
Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
topazg wrote:
I resign
Many thanks for a very entertaining game. I've spent the last few moves desperately trying to recover ground, in the hope I can force responses before salvaging what little I could get back, however, you keep responding too strongly!
It's been a genuine pleasure, and congrats on the win.
(snip - for now)
Once the fighting broke out in the middle, I was simply behind. When you made your comment about not being able to just play out the yose I was surprised - I actually think you were far enough ahead that you could, but maybe I'm mistaken. By the latter end of the battle, I either had to kill the group on the right, or the 7 stones in the middle plus saving all my centre stones to have a chance. I figured responding differently to you pulling out the stone in the lower right would simply leave me too far behind at best, so I may as well stake the game on a battle with some potential to score a coup.
I'd be interested in any thoughts of yours, including on bits I did that you thought were wrong that I overlooked.
Thanks again for a fantastic and interesting game
Graham, thank you, both for a great game and your kind remarks. I had a great time. I just got in from work and it is already past 11 PM here, so the analysis will have to start tomorrow. I just wanted to get the thanks part done in a timely fashion.
_________________ Dave Sigaty "Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..." - Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
Posts: 2414 Location: Tokyo, Japan Liked others: 2351 Was liked: 1332
Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
Just to start things off... Last weekend I put the position below in front of the usual riff raff that I hang around with at the Nihon Kiin on Saturdays and Omori-sensei who was on hand that day.
The consensus was that Graham's , combo was too early and that it would be better to just jump out and keep the peep(s) in reserve. However, NO ONE agreed with my immediate push and cut. It was rather like they suddenly realized I had two heads or something (sometimes I just can't imagine why I waste my time with a pack of such unenlightened, ignorant... cough, cough, well anyway ).
We put through on the board at which point Omori-sensei's basic instinct was to immediately attach and play the double hane of and . When we fiddled about (excuse the highly technical language ) with the continuations the results were not so convincing for White however. Any time Black manages to turn at "a", White's shape is poor. So had to be rejected in favor of continuing to push.
Here if Black responds to at 5, White should peep at "a" and then jump into the right side. White can expect to reduce Black to almost nothing in this area. Therefore it is natural for Black to answer with . Now means that Black is the one who has been pushing from behind. If Black finishes off the corner with and White and Black exchange for (this last is chosen for comparison purposes), how do we analyze the situation?
Regardless of the style questions about the peeps, etc. they would not be terrible. I think I learned something about the Chinese in this game. I was uncomfortable with the result of jumping out side by side with Black. My tentative conclusion is that the marked stone below is just in the right spot when White tries the counter pincer and then jumps out. In retrospect, I think I would have been more comfortable jumping in to "a" instead of below.
_________________ Dave Sigaty "Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..." - Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
topazg: I think pushing again is sente, and makes a relatively important local difference to my strength and shape. There is a flipside that it increases your strength too, so I'm not entirely sure, but I felt like I tenuki'd too fast.
ez4u: I thought you should push too. I was very happy to turn at 5 above. I would have answered the push. Of course the counterpoint is the extent to which my wall would overshadow your right side. In addition, I did not expect that you would simply let me capture the marked stone if I played "a". I thought in the worst case I might have to atari my way out. Stopping here meant that I could never catch your stone in a geta and that I might have to let you swallow the center stones in order to pull out the upper right corner stones. If you push once more, the geta is there. I assumed that was why you stopped
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . | $$ | . . . O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . b X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O C . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
topazg: The game losing move in my opinion, if ever there was one. I'll never tenuki this again, it was definitely the more urgent fight. Admittedly, I hadn't expected you to pirouette up the right hand side like a highly trained ballerina, but at the end of the sequence it was clear I'd gone wrong somewhere, and this move is the logical culprit in my eyes.
ez4u: I agree that the marked stone was not good because the direction was wrong. You definitely have to play on the right, but the best choice is not clear to me. No matter what you choose, we are going to dance. In my mind "a" was always waiting as a weak point for Black. I think that I would have been the most disappointed by a play like "b" and if White tries something like "c", Black gets to push up at "d" and protect the weak point. However, I really do not know what is best for either Black or White around here.
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . | $$ | . . C . . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . | $$ | . . 7 O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
topazg: I played the 3-3 because, for some reason, I felt you had to block on the other side to where you played, and the result would be the same as this move. In hindsight, I should have stuck with this (my original idea) as it may allow me to settle my two stones on a larger scale, or alternatively get a half decent corner in some semblance of sente.
ez4u: If we consider your G17 stone as an outlier of a strong group then you should want to play away from strength and "in theory" this is better than the game. However, as perceval's sig tells us "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." This might be such a case. I am looking for a fight. Why? Because all along I have been trying to get back to the left side and invade your 3-space extension. In addition, I want to cut at K13. My aim in replying here then will be to try to maneuver play to leave me strong enough to first invade the left and then if the opportunity arises, cut in the center. I am not sure how it will all work out but I think my chances would still be good to get my way. Your idea below of playing in the left side instead of this area is simply better in my opinion.
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . | $$ | . . C . . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . | $$ | . . . O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
topazg: I also have a strong suspicion that this side was simply more urgent than the top left, especially as my followups are reasonably interesting if you choose to secure the top left. This was, as far as I can see, the second game losing mistake I made.
ez4u: I completely agree with this. I thought the left side was much more important than the upper left. The reason was that the center was also undecided and the play on the left would naturally have a major impact on the center. I would have been in real trouble if you had played this way.
And the only White move that I can think of that I would dare to criticise, as you simply outplayed me far too much to feel strongly about any of your other moves (apart from maybe "how did he do that??"): (edited)
topazg: I didn't think this move gained you enough - I thought your H16 stone was light, and I sort of expected you just to secure the corner. Is this idea of mine bad?
ez4u: I thought about this quite a while. There were two points to my analysis: 1. I thought was not necessary. I was considering your top group as something that could not be attacked profitably (although I now see that a lot of the commentary seemed to disagree with this). So answering was not an expensive play for me. 2. I wanted to cut at "a". I expected to attack the left-side stones one way or another. One possibility was to lean on them from the upper left and then cut at "a" to pick up some points in this area. If I did not answer it became an indirect protection against the cut. If the potential in the upper center disappeared, then there would be no second threat backing up any play against the left side. Protecting the upper left corner may be pretty big in territory, but it is not connected to anything else on the board. Unfortunately was slow but in the end I thought that I should accept that. In addition, it did provide some additional strength if you invaded around C14 instead of taking the corner.
_________________ Dave Sigaty "Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..." - Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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EdLee
at F17 is a pro opinion. See Post #111.
, 
combo was too early and that it would be better to just jump out and keep the peep(s) in reserve. However, 
).
through 
on the board at which point Omori-sensei's basic instinct was to immediately attach and play the double hane of 
and 
. When we fiddled about (excuse the highly technical language 
) with the continuations the results were not so convincing for White however. Any time Black manages to turn at "a", White's shape is poor. So 
. Now 
means that Black is the one who has been pushing from behind. If Black finishes off the corner with 
(this last is chosen for comparison purposes), how do we analyze the situation?
below before protecting the corner? 
already, 
and 
look even less compelling.
was not necessary. I was considering your top group as something that could not be attacked profitably (although I now see that a lot of the commentary seemed to disagree with this). So answering 
was slow but in the end I thought that I should accept that. In addition, it did provide some additional strength if you invaded around C14 instead of taking the corner.