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 Post subject: Re: Valid moves you don't play.
Post #21 Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:30 am 
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Mef wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 5 . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]



I've never liked B4 as either player...I feel like no matter which side I'm on it's a bad result...


I have the impression many of those who excessively play it do play it because it is fancy and they speculate on your mistakes, not because they like the result. For fun I like to make a fashion statement myself (when the ladder works) by answering with :w5: :D

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 Post subject: Re: Valid moves you don't play.
Post #22 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:12 am 
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Mef wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]



I've never liked B4 as either player...I feel like no matter which side I'm on it's a bad result...


I have seen this move before and completely symphatize with you disliking it, for the following reason:

I tend to see the game as a conversation (or let's say a discussion). This move feels like manipulating the discussion in an ugly way. For example cursing at your opponent in a language he doesn't understand with the hope that he will misinterpret it and say something stupid which you can exploit later during the discussion.

It may or may not be joseki, it can even be the best innovation ever, I don't care. As long as I don't understand it and have the feeling that my opponent does not understand it either, I feel bad about it.
But maybe it's only me not understanding this move :)

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 Post subject: Re: Valid moves you don't play.
Post #23 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:30 am 
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Tygem: 커비라고해
entropi wrote:
Mef wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]



I've never liked B4 as either player...I feel like no matter which side I'm on it's a bad result...


I have seen this move before and completely symphatize with you disliking it, for the following reason:

I tend to see the game as a conversation (or let's say a discussion). This move feels like manipulating the discussion in an ugly way. For example cursing at your opponent in a language he doesn't understand with the hope that he will misinterpret it and say something stupid which you can exploit later during the discussion.

It may or may not be joseki, it can even be the best innovation ever, I don't care. As long as I don't understand it and have the feeling that my opponent does not understand it either, I feel bad about it.
But maybe it's only me not understanding this move :)


I actually play B4 pretty often in games. To me, it doesn't feel like "manipulating the discussion in an ugly way" so much as saying, "Hey, I want to start fighting now. I don't want to wait. Let's get going!".

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 Post subject: Re: Valid moves you don't play.
Post #24 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:58 am 
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Kirby wrote:
I actually play B4 pretty often in games. To me, it doesn't feel like "manipulating the discussion in an ugly way" so much as saying, "Hey, I want to start fighting now. I don't want to wait. Let's get going!".


Well, I have nothing against fighting, in fact I enjoy fighting games much more than peaceful land grabbing games. But this move (and some others as well) feels so unnatural that I cannot help thinking of it as a manipulation of discussion.

I would play such kind of a move (or a strange looking invasion, strange attacks, etc) in a game where I am way behind, in order to complicate the game. But playing a move that I dont understand right from the start... I don't know, it's not my understanding of the game.

But again, maybe it's just me who doesn't understand it :)

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 Post subject: Re: Valid moves you don't play.
Post #25 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:22 am 
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entropi wrote:
...
I would play such kind of a move (or a strange looking invasion, strange attacks, etc) in a game where I am way behind, in order to complicate the game. But playing a move that I dont understand right from the start... I don't know, it's not my understanding of the game.

But again, maybe it's just me who doesn't understand it :)


One way to try to understand it is to think of sequences that might arise from it.

Here are some examples:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 8 . 3 . . . |
$$ 0 . 6 4 1 9 . . . . |
$$ , . 7 5 . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Above, black has made some territory on the top, and has stones on the right side. White might take the 3-3 point, but other than that doesn't have much presence in the area.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ . . . 5 6 7 3 . . . |
$$ . . 0 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . 8 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Above, white captures a single stone, but black gets good central influence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 8 . 3 . . . |
$$ . . 6 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . 5 7 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Above, white's shape is awkward, and black again has presence on both the top and the right.

Of course, there are tons of possibilities. But I cannot say that I feel that black is necessarily bad in them, given the correct board position.

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This post by Kirby was liked by: entropi
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 Post subject: Re: Valid moves you don't play.
Post #26 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:21 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ . . . 5 6 7 3 . . . |
$$ . . 0 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . 8 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]



This looks pretty bad for White. White can improve however by playing an atari at B4 instead of firmly capturing instantly. Provided the ladders work for White,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ . . 6 1 2 5 O . . . |
$$ . 8 3 X O . . . . . |
$$ , . . 4 . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 5 1 2 8 O . . . |
$$ . 9 4 X O 6 . . . . |
$$ , . . 3 7 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


This post by tapir was liked by: entropi
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