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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #101 Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:05 am 
Honinbo
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joppon (after the game),
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b , . . . . . a . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . W . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
joppon wrote:
If 'a' and 'b' are miai...
(a) and (b) are not miai. :black:(b) is a big move, while :black:(a) is... strange. :)
joppon wrote:
my style... tells me to attack :wc: with something like 'a'.
Given the board, you can not attack :wc:, and even if you wanted to, (a) is not the right move.
(a) = attach; general idea: don't touch your target weak group (but :wc: is not your target!).
Also, this has nothing to do with your style. :) It's about attack (strategy) and contact plays (tactics).
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Offline joppon
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #102 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:30 am 
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EdLee, this game will probably last for another 130 moves. At least. Leaving me to wonder the entire time. So cruel. :lol:
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #103 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:03 am 
Honinbo
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Location: Santa Barbara, CA
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joppon, maybe it's OK after the lower half of the board is completely settled. :)
If the situation changes enough that you can read it, I'll let you know at the right time. :mrgreen:
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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #104 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:02 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1387
Liked others: 139
Was liked: 111
GD Posts: 209
KGS: Marcus316
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Big corner? lots of unsettled positions on the board.
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Offline joppon
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #105 Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:56 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 92
Liked others: 5
Was liked: 1
Rank: OGS 8 kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 O . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I cannot see any bad variations for black. But let's wait and see what Marcus does.
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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #106 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:54 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1387
Liked others: 139
Was liked: 111
GD Posts: 209
KGS: Marcus316
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Just taking some cash ...
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Offline joppon
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #107 Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:54 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 92
Liked others: 5
Was liked: 1
Rank: OGS 8 kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O 5 . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Diag 1
White has 'a'.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 X O 1 a . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Diag 2a
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 4 5 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 3 8 . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O 1 0 . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Diag 2b
Black dies.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 6 X C X O . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 5 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Diag 2b variation
Black dies.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X 3 X O . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Diag 3
In principle 'a' is bad for black. But my influence is far too great for me to worry about it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 4 5 a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 3 . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O 1 . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #108 Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:23 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1387
Liked others: 139
Was liked: 111
GD Posts: 209
KGS: Marcus316
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sorry for the delays. I should be able to post a bit more often over the next couple of weeks.
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Offline joppon
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #109 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:40 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 92
Liked others: 5
Was liked: 1
Rank: OGS 8 kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Diag 1. Black has the ladder.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 2 5 . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Diag 2. This is OK for Black.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 3 . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Diag 3. For white to play this way would be insane.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 3 . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Diag 4. After W2, black has 'a' or 'b'.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now that I look at it, I cannot imagine how white can come out of this exchange better than black. At least not without starting a fight. Or without a tennuki. Say perhaps at tengen?
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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #110 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:49 am 
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IMO, Joppon is greatly overestimating the value of his wall. Also, in a lot of his sequences White makes thank you moves that throw away sente
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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #111 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:53 pm 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll take sente and a nice big corner ... I think I'll jump over to Q10 next and strengthen myself there.
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Offline Laman
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #112 Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:28 am 
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Aphelion wrote:
IMO, Joppon is greatly overestimating the value of his wall. Also, in a lot of his sequences White makes thank you moves that throw away sente

well, i also estimate black wall worth pretty much and i guess i would prefer playing as black if i were to choose which color continue with. what bothers me more are two unresolved situations on the right and bottom side, where black make large profit with a single move, but white can equally easily build himself a stronghold for an important reduction of black's influence.

another area where i can feel some tension is the left side - black five stones are now much stronger than white four, but once white adds a jump towards the bottom, his group is not so easy to attack anymore and at some point black will have to take care of his stones on the left and possibly even his great wall if white gets also Q11 on the right

with 2-3 so unstable areas both players have to be careful to settle them in the correct order and in the most preferable way

about variations, perhaps joppon could consider whether all included diagrams are really useful or if it would be better for clarity to just show the most reasonable ones and rest shorten to something like 'i don't see any good result for white if he chooses to atari XY'

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Offline joppon
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #113 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:32 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #114 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:06 am 
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@Joppon
Can you give a little more detail on how white omitting E5 sente affected the bottom left ? I have a nightmare of a time with crosscut joseki.


Obs, unrelatedly.
If I were Marcus, I would try to "begrudgingly" let that bamboo joint die* to buy some new, more flexible centre stones.


*NB my "style" seems to involve letting many of my own stones die.

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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #115 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:57 am 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . 0 . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Joppon really likes to make things complicated ... of course, I need to find a way to take advantage of the chaos ... look at all the possible cuts!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X c X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . 0 . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X b . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not counting the two spots where we each have a single stone touching, this is my last weak "group". Now the aim will be to make the little weaknesses in joppon's positions dangerous for him.

I wonder how I'll do that?
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Offline joppon
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #116 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:00 pm 
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@Loons
Loons, when I play thhe crosscut in certain situations I get a (small) feeling of unease because of the difficulty of determining likely outcomes. In situations like this I simply wait to to see what my opponents do and then say: This is what I want from this position. And then I try to find a sequence that best approximates my desire.

Are there such things as crosscut joseki? Or perhaps you refer to joseki which feature such cuts. In the former case, it depends upon where they are played on the board, the positions of nearby stones etc.

To actually answer your question: I'm not sure that E5 is sente. But that probably has to do with my never having studied the concept. E5's relevance to my mind, is its effect on the centre. In taking the bottom left, Marcus has gained about 20pts. And is about 30pts ahead overall. However, black has so much influence that white will probably spend much of the rest of the game on the run, trying to live. My cutting stone, because of Marcus' choosing to take the corner has simply allowed me to take sente. From this point of view W78 was overplay? If something like below occurs and I was white, I would not be happy.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm01 Prisoner Count: :b1: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X 3 X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . O . 6 . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 1 5 . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline joppon
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #117 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:02 am 
Dies with sente

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Rank: OGS 8 kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . O . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #118 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:45 pm 
Gosei

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KGS: Marcus316
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O 2 O . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #119 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Laman:
I'm talking about the F4 'wall' that comes from his last corner exchange, not the Black north wall
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Offline Laman
 Post subject: Re: 112. joppon v Marcus
Post #120 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:25 pm 
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Aphelion:
Aphelion wrote:
Laman:
I'm talking about the F4 'wall' that comes from his last corner exchange, not the Black north wall

ah, i see. black's formulation sounds exaggerated, but i also like walls and the more walls you have, the better

now i wonder how to continue with black to gain most... i agree with Loons that white center stones are probably too heavy to be worth an effort to save them

diagram 120-1 shows what i consider a nice sequence for black. once white takes gote for settle his floating group, black stakes out a big territory with 'a'


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 120-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . X X O O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X O , . . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O O . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . O . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O . X . X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O W O . 2 . 4 . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . 1 . 3 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . O a . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i also considered playing 1 at 2, driving white the other way and finishing the sequence with 5, claiming the right side. i am eager to see how will white solve the situation

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