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 Post subject: Re: #134 dabird vs sevis
Post #21 Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:54 am 
Lives with ko
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Posts: 155
Location: The Netherlands
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 0
Rank: KGS 6 kyu
KGS: Sevis
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hang on, did he just play exactly what I expected him to play? Am I hallucinating?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As stated before.

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 Post subject: Re: #134 dabird vs sevis
Post #22 Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:30 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 63
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 2
Rank: KGS 3kyu
KGS: Chewtoy
I think we got our move numbers out of whack. I think this fixes? I'm getting the hang of the "go" code! Very cool!


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is an attach and extend joseki. I'm predicting that white will try to emphasize the bottom (diagram 1). But acccording to Ishida, there is a "well known" (not to me!) tesuji at 'a' which can lead to a cut (diagram 2).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 Diagram 1. Normal joseki.
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 4 . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 Diagram 2. A "well known" tesuji.
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 9 8 O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 0 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 4 . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This followed by:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$wm11 Diagram 3. White cuts.
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here, white will have to fix the cut at 'a' and the atari at 'b' would be very hard to handle. But then, black isn't settled yet; Ishida shows how black can be killed here (not that I would have been able to see it myself!). Regardless, if white chooses to cut as in Diagram 2, he will have to fix at 'a', giving me sente. Also, this will give white a position along the right side that won't put undue pressure on my upper right 3-4 stone. So I'm happy with this.

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 Post subject: Re: #134 dabird vs sevis
Post #23 Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:45 am 
Lives with ko
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Location: The Netherlands
Liked others: 11
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Rank: KGS 6 kyu
KGS: Sevis
I increased mine a little too much, but then you decreased it a little too much. :) Just to make sure it's correct:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . 8 . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Expected response already posted.

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 Post subject: Re: #134 dabird vs sevis
Post #24 Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:07 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 63
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 2
Rank: KGS 3kyu
KGS: Chewtoy
Ok! I guess I don't "quite" have the knack yet...
:P

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Following the joseki as per previous comments.

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 Post subject: Re: #134 dabird vs sevis
Post #25 Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:28 am 
Lives with ko
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Posts: 155
Location: The Netherlands
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 0
Rank: KGS 6 kyu
KGS: Sevis
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can either jump back with this stone, or continue with the top plan, and I think I like the top better. Expecting:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 3 . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I considered :w14: one higher, but I didn't like how loose it was. If he ignores -- approach!

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Post #26 Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:33 pm 
Honinbo
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hman wrote:
for example in Kirby's and magicwand's games after a while I'm not able to follow the more complicated strategic lines of thought.
You're welcome. :) You can also ask the players or others to explain parts that are unclear to you --
you may get lucky. :)

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 Post subject: Re: #134 dabird vs sevis
Post #27 Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:59 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 63
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 2
Rank: KGS 3kyu
KGS: Chewtoy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




:w2: is not joseki. At least, not that I could find. Now I have to think on my own! Oh no! :P I want to settle my group quickly, and pushing to the corner at 'a' would help and it is a big point. Chasing after :wt: doesn't look like a clear advantage when I'm leaving a weak group behind and it also has good follow up moves for black. So, I'll go for the corner.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . Q 1 X a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #134 dabird vs sevis
Post #28 Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:46 am 
Lives with ko
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Posts: 155
Location: The Netherlands
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 0
Rank: KGS 6 kyu
KGS: Sevis
Oh, wow, spectators. :D That are leaving comments. Scary.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O B X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I wonder if I was too eager to play the move I had planned. I would say that the marked exchange favours me, and that's the difference with the original plan. I also thin it's time to move on. I considered breaking up the white bottom:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . 6 . . . 5 . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . 4 . . 2 . 3 . . O X X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't like the idea of making a weak group there, though. If the sequence repeats up there:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O 6 8 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 3 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And I think black still needs to play something in this situation.

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 Post subject: Re: #134 dabird vs sevis
Post #29 Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:25 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 63
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 2
Rank: KGS 3kyu
KGS: Chewtoy
Well, I hope we are providing good entertainment!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm in a spot of bother now. I'm going to let white build the right side, but I think I can either interfere with that, or take sente for compensation. Also, by choosing to approach my stone, he has left the lower right corner open for me and hasn't gone to help his weak stone yet.

I'm predicting this outcome:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 My prediction.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 0 . . O 6 9 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 3 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If white chooses the above joseki, I will take sente with :B:. then I'll play on the bottom, getting compensation for helping white build on the right side. Still, even with the position, he hasn't made an astonishing moyo, it still looks a bit low.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Black settles the corner in sente.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #30 Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:21 pm 
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For Chew Terr and both players. :)
The lower right corner shape at :b15: happened in my self-paired game with Chew Terr
this afternoon at U.S. Go Congress, except it was one line higher:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . X X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . O X X 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]
I even mumbled to Chew Terr at that point that I had just recently seen it
in a Malkovich game on L19! :)


This post by EdLee was liked by: Chew Terr
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Post #31 Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:29 pm 
Dies in gote

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Rank: KGS 3kyu
KGS: Chewtoy
EdLee wrote:
For Chew Terr and both players. :)
The lower right corner shape at :b15: happened in my self-paired game with Chew Terr
this afternoon at U.S. Go Congress, except it was one line higher:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . X X O . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . O X X 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]
I even mumbled to Chew Terr at that point that I had just recently seen it
in a Malkovich game on L19! :)


Very cool! I hope it was ok for me to peek at this message! I don't know why it was hidden.
Cheers,
-D

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Post #32 Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:46 pm 
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dabird wrote:
I don't know why it was hidden.
To save space and to have something for everybody to click. :)

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 Post subject: Re: #134 dabird vs sevis
Post #33 Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:06 pm 
Lives with ko
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Hah. Well, at least I know that high-level players don't mind this happening to them, so I guess it's not too bad. :)

I'm going to be gone for today, and may have little time for a few days starting tomorrow. Therefore, I'm going to post a trigger along with this move...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 1 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The way this works is that once you've decided on your move, you can check the hidden part below and if you played what I thought you'd play, I play the response I gave below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 1 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And a continuation if you accept:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O 4 6 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 1 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #134 dabird vs sevis
Post #34 Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:49 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 63
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 2
Rank: KGS 3kyu
KGS: Chewtoy
hmm hmm hmm....I have little choice but to accept.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I hope I'm right here. I think I can still settle reasonably well with 23. But with the white stone just 2 spaces below, I think I'm going to be in for a fight.


Last edited by dabird on Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #35 Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:28 am 
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Sevis wrote:
so I guess it's not too bad. :)
Not necessarily, and I cannot say more until later. :)

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 Post subject: Re: #134 dabird vs sevis
Post #36 Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:23 am 
Lives in gote
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crazy interesting fuseki guys

already i wouldnt want to be either B or W: too hard :shock:

_________________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

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Post #37 Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:28 am 
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dabird wrote:
I think I can still settle reasonably well with :b1:.
Where is :b1: ? :) -- Off to the U.S. Open, Round 3! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: #134 dabird vs sevis
Post #38 Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:46 am 
Lives with ko
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KGS: Sevis
And I'm back!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Usually, I'd play on the bottom in order to split it up, but I'm not sure that's actually any good... However, a black play there would make it far too hard for me to do anything about it. And, a however to that however, I'd rather not jump into yet another crazy sequence. I think I should have played on the bottom-right as I had played on the top, but oh well.

I'm playing this because if white now approaches, I've got the pincer in place, and can hope to not give white two sides. Hm. I don't like it, but I've tried others, and they all feel even worse. Hm. I expect a low approach from white.

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 Post subject: Re: #134 dabird vs sevis
Post #39 Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:19 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 63
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Rank: KGS 3kyu
KGS: Chewtoy
Welcome back!




Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm torn between the move I want to make (a), and the move I think I should make (b). 'b' settles my group completely and is sente, according to Ishida. The cut at 'c' would be hard for white to manage. Indeed, given the black position above, perhaps even more so. But I don't want to let white get move along the top. Such a move, with his wide extension on the left (24), would threaten a big moyo. On the other hand, if I can cut at c, white would be left with a weak group sandwiched between two relatively strong groups. This also gives black a rock-solid corner. White took similar profit on the top right, so perhaps 'b' is a good move for maintaining balance of territory.

Looking at 'a', this would give me an extension, but I would be asking white to mobilize :ws:, which I don't feel ready for yet, since white 'b' would deny me the corner and put my group at risk. Ok! 'b' must be my move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O c . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . a . . . @ X X X b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #134 dabird vs sevis
Post #40 Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:45 am 
Lives with ko
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Posts: 155
Location: The Netherlands
Liked others: 11
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Rank: KGS 6 kyu
KGS: Sevis
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Need to protect the cut. Other way is worse:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . 2 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O X X X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Bottom is urgent. Expected (.oi):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 7 . . . . O X X X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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