135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:43 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Value: 52.2%

Well, Fuego picked the same move it was thinking of before, I wish I could have made this a trigger. But notice the difference in the followup sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm23 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 4 5 9 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . 0 . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Fuego thinks Daniel will switch to attack the lower left corner next.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:50 pm

Wow, really? That move seems several levels below the rest of the moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It seems clear to me that the hanging connection is worse than a solid one... it is now almost sente for me to capture, and if black fixes it he'll have lost sente...

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:34 am

I don't usually post triggers, but this one seems likely enough that I went for it:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 5 6 . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Value: 51.5% , dropping all the way back down to where it was before :w20:

.

It's important to remember that Fuego doesn't have any notion of saving ko threats. It will only consider a ko if it sees one somewhere in the tree. So moves like this may just be its way of simplifying the situation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . 4 . 5 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . 3 . X . . . . 9 X O 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There is a problem though: I don' think the :w28:

in the diagram isn't as good for white as this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O a . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . b X O 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't think the atari at "a" really threatens anything, and black will have to prevent the cut at "b". Seems like Fuego is self-destructing a bit here. My personal prediction is that Daniel will capture, Fuego will defend at "b" (possibly making the atari first) and white will take sente to switch to the bottom left.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:16 am

The next one seems mandatory, too:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 5 6 . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Does fuego think it can kill me here? These moves don't make any sense to me, they're just making me more solid. :scratch:

Respect for opponent is... dropping.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:22 am

Daniel- May I ask why you didn't just capture? I assumed you would, so you get a few more points and end in sente. Black doesn't seem to get anything more than a ko threat or two for it?

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:39 am

Gah, because I wasn't paying attention and didn't read past the atari... I had a terrible record in casual games at congress, including losing an *even* game to someone I beat *while giving 8 stones* in a rated game. I think at least part of my problem is once they play a few moves that don't make sense my brain shuts off completely and I play even worse. So thanks for the wake up call...

Well, I think black's moves in this corner are still making it a net gain for me. I'd like to say my last move left less aji but I don't think that's true...

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:44 am

daniel_the_smith wrote:Well, I think black's moves in this corner are still making it a net gain for me.

Oh, I definitely agree with this. Fuego's burned more locally than you, it feels like to me. Sorry to put you on the spot, just thought I might be missing something.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:03 am

Chew Terr wrote:... Sorry to put you on the spot, just thought I might be missing something.

Don't apologize, it's the whole point of these games

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:45 pm

Don't worry, all the rest of the moves will make perfect sense ;-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Value: 51.4%

Well, Fuego has been wanting to play around here for a while now, so I guess at least it's consistent. I'll be quite interested to see how Daniel reacts. This was actually a really tough choice for Fuego, lots of moves were considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . f . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . d . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . e . . a . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . b . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a - 35%
b - 24%
c - 9%
d - 9%
e - 7%
f - 6%

In the last prediction Fuego was planning on "b", and in fact only changed its mind after 15 minutes of thought.

Sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm29 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 4 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X 6 . O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . . 8 2 . . . 5 . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:39 pm

Actually, that move *does* make perfect sense and I want to think about it a bit more... I think I want to make shape in the lower left. Fuego's opening seems great, I'll try to copy it in my games, I think

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:29 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . . 0 . . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I considered lots of moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 No Prisoners $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . e f . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . . i . . . . d c . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X g . O . . b a . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . . h . . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I really want to cut 29 off from the 3rd line stone, but as far as I could tell all of the moves in between let black wall off half of his moyo. So, new plan: settle in this half, and then fight my way out of the other half. Plus, I'm not sure fuego will be able to get a good result in this corner if it plays like in the last one. One potential flaw in my plan, I'm not sure if that k3 stone changes the joseki here or not.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:59 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X 1 . O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Time = 16:07
Value = 51.3%

Sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . 8 . . . . 7 . . 0 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . 9 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X 1 . O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . . O 2 4 . . . . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know what joseki Daniel means, but I would have played hane here. Fuego spent 90% of playouts on this move, only 4% on the hane possibility, no other serious considerations. :b33:

is definitely big, but I'm not sure if its worth letting white settle so easily. with plays like :b35:

and

, I think Fuego believes it is Takemiya

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:34 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . . O 2 . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bummer, I was hoping for the complicated thing that happens when black plays d3. Actually, this might be good for black, we'll see. I'm pretty sure I'm OK if black cuts at e3.

snorri · Post by **snorri** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:52 pm

daal · Post by **daal** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:07 pm

Several times white has played a move that Fuego predicted - for example move 18 and move 21, but although Fuego then played its planned response, it changed its prediction for the continuation. Why is this so?

Life In 19x19

135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)