136. Magicwand vs. Kirby - Fire, Strike, 2 stones again!

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Kirby
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Re: 136. Magicwand vs. Kirby - Fire, Strike, 2 stones again!

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Chew Terr
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Re: 136. Magicwand vs. Kirby - Fire, Strike, 2 stones again!

Post by Chew Terr »

Kirby wrote:@Chew:
So I'm the underdog, eh? I guess I'll have to mix things up a little bit, then... ;-)


Eh, for these purposes I just meant 'black in handicap'. Hard to call you that when you're killing large groups and winning though. =)
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Magicwand
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Re: 136. Magicwand vs. Kirby - Fire, Strike, 2 stones again!

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . O . . . 9 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

easy does it...
dont need to attack that stone.
life is not always good thing.

IMO because he secured life his correct move now is to tenuki and use that exchange as a probe.
but is he going to play that way?
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
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Shaddy
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Re: 136. Magicwand vs. Kirby - Fire, Strike, 2 stones again!

Post by Shaddy »

Already I feel black is good. White's O5 looks ridiculous
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Banaan
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Re: 136. Magicwand vs. Kirby - Fire, Strike, 2 stones again!

Post by Banaan »

Shaddy wrote:
Already I feel black is good. White's O5 looks ridiculous


What would be your move? Q3?
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Shaddy
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Re: 136. Magicwand vs. Kirby - Fire, Strike, 2 stones again!

Post by Shaddy »

Like MW said, tenuki's best. I'd play R13 or sth like that
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Kirby
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Re: 136. Magicwand vs. Kirby - Fire, Strike, 2 stones again!

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . O . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can't think of a good way to respond in the corner without hurting the stone I already played, so I will strengthen the right, first.

This move is high, and feels slightly awkward. However, I want to play it because it reminds me of this kind of situation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . 1 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So am I imitating moves I've seen before without really understanding them? ... Yes, I think I am. But I want to get used to the nuances of this type of move, and play something I'm uncomfortable with. Otherwise, how will I learn those nuances?
be immersed
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jts
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Re: 136. Magicwand vs. Kirby - Fire, Strike, 2 stones again!

Post by jts »

Am I right that, tewari-wise, it looks like white approached a 3-3 stone, was ignored, double-approached, was ignored again, and then added a third stone just to be sure?
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Tryss
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Re: 136. Magicwand vs. Kirby - Fire, Strike, 2 stones again!

Post by Tryss »

jts wrote:
Am I right that, tewari-wise, it looks like white approached a 3-3 stone, was ignored, double-approached, was ignored again, and then added a third stone just to be sure?


Actually Q8 could be considered as a pincer... But yeah, O5 looks nearly useless :/

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . O . . . 4 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Magicwand
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Re: 136. Magicwand vs. Kirby - Fire, Strike, 2 stones again!

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . O . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i think this is only move i can make.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Kirby
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Re: 136. Magicwand vs. Kirby - Fire, Strike, 2 stones again!

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . O . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't know when it's "OK" for people to comment about this position in the game, but I would really appreciate some feedback regarding this type of scenario.

When white plays a move like he just did, I very often feel inclined to take territory with a move like I'm playing right now.

Most of the reason is based on feeling, but also I have the following reasons:
1.) I feel like it gives me solid corner territory.
2.) I feel like it prevents white from messing with the stones in that area.

For example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . O . . . . O . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

3.) I feel that it gives me the opportunity to potentially reduce white in the future with a monkey jump, for example.

Despite this, in addition to my feeling that I should play this move, there is a feeling inside of me that says, "No. You are over-estimating the value of this move. It is not as good as you think it is.".

So I guess it's probably cheating to ask people to give their opinions right now about this move, but when you feel that it's OK to disclose your opinion about the move that I just played, please let me know what you think.

Am I overvaluing this move? How can I properly estimate the value of it? Is it as big as I think it is?
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Magicwand
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Re: 136. Magicwand vs. Kirby - Fire, Strike, 2 stones again!

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . O . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i couldnt wait anymore!
it feels like an overplay..but i dont see any moves by black that will give him advantage.
i will see how he will answer.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Kirby
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Re: 136. Magicwand vs. Kirby - Fire, Strike, 2 stones again!

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . O . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What can I say? This feels like the only move to me.
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Magicwand
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Re: 136. Magicwand vs. Kirby - Fire, Strike, 2 stones again!

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . O . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

answer i expected from Kirby...
i wouldnt have hanne if i was Kirby..
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Re: 136. Magicwand vs. Kirby - Fire, Strike, 2 stones again!

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 6 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . O . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I will make him fix his own shape. I thought about one of the following ataris:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . O . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . O . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But I feel like they help white more than black. Let's make him fix his own shape, and I can get another move in later.
be immersed
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