Studying ; Game of the day |UPD ; 25/8/2011|

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Christos
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Studying ; Game of the day |UPD ; 25/8/2011|

Post by Christos »

Hello fellow go-enthusiasts,

Today I have decided that in order to become stronger, I will replay at least one professional game a day (next to the other stuff I intend to do i.e. tsumego/watching lectures and playing).
Now as I know I (sadly) lack a fair bit of self-discipline I had to figure out a way to commit myself to actually doing this and keeping my resolution, which is where this topic comes in.

Here is how it's going to work ;

Every day I will update this post with a new professional game, I will personally replay this game several times and write down any thoughts and/or questions I have about it and I encourage you to do the same.
I will share these with you (mind you I'm fairly weak), you share yours with the rest of the group and we will try our bests to help eachother out, we'll work together, hivemind.
This post will be updated with the most insightful and FAQ (and answers) aswell as thoughts, and once the day passes and it is time for a new game I will put it in spoiler tags with the date so you can always look back at older games
we discussed. I am also considering featuring one of the joseki (assuming there were any in the game) played and looking at it in a little more depth (or possibly the exact variation from the game), but I'm not sure if that'd be helpful, any feedback regarding this is most welcome.
As for what games I will pick, they will probably mostly be at random, I will also accept any and all requests for a particular game or even a particular pattern and I will try my best to feature a game containing that pattern.

I must warn you that though discussion is one of the purposes of this, any and all negativity will not be tolerated. If you disagree with someone's opinion please offer constructive criticism rather than humiliating or insulting someone.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I saw this game on gogameguru today. It looked like a lot of fun that's why I decided to replay it today

Game of the Day 25/8/2011



Comments on my part are to follow later, I am not feeling very well right now

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Older games
GOTD 24/8/2011
Comments regarding GOTD 24/08/2011
After replaying this game twice I have only one question.. what happened? I feel there were several times white could've have played it safe by playing a slow move but I'm sure he would've had he felt it was possible. So.. what happened?
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GOTD 23/8/2011
I randomly picked a game from my (when I say "my" I actually mean a free database I got off the web) Cho Chikun Database and I ended up with this game between Cho Chikun 9DP and Ma Xiaochun 9DP from 1992 (a bit old I suppose, but work with me here)[/spoiler
Comments Regarding GOTD 23/8/2011
- is 7 F15 for black not playable and possibly better? In the end I suppose it's all about your own style and Cho Chikun is a fairly territory-oriented player, or am I missing another reason why my move is inferior? (We decided both are playable)
- White 54 looks really uncomfortable, this group could fall under heavy attack later. But I'm not sure if white has much of a choice in the matter. (White is absolutely forced to invade)
- What did the exchange from 188 to 194 get for white? They seem like wasted ko threats and he ends in gote. (Well timed exchange for white according to magicwand)
- 201 - 209 was an awesome exchange for black, I doubt I would've seen it no matter how much time I got (even after he played T8 I didn't know what his purpose was) (Turns out this was actually good for white, Thank you Magicwand)
- 242 last move in the game, Black resigns, he appears to be ahead at the moment but he will be forced to capture the white group in his own territory after which he will be behind. Could that have been the purpose of white's exchange earlier in the game despite it being gote?
Magicwand wrote:1. 7 or F15..both josekies. either move can be played.
2. 54 seems like the only move white can play at this point.
3. exchange is a perfect timing and it is not a waste of ko threat. perhaps bill can tell you how much it worth..
4. 201-209 is an awesome exchange for white and only way to play for black. it simplified the board and gave white a guarantee win.

overall it was a complicated and very close game but white found a way to win.
i am impressed at white for lower left tenuki and playing middle.
actually i am impressed at many other moves by white that is hard to think of.

thank you for posting sgf.
Furthermore we established that the exchange for black in the top (despite the stones looking dead) were the right timing to make the wedge later in the game playable.
If you wish read the posts referring to this game please look at post #2 through #7
Happy learning!

- Christos
Last edited by Christos on Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Studying ; Game of the day

Post by emeraldemon »

At least, regarding the joseki, it looks like the one space jump is a bit more common than the 3-3 invasion:

http://dailyjoseki.com/browse/bwpwxibwk

But it may just be a style thing. Both are definitely playable.
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Re: Studying ; Game of the day

Post by hyperpape »

I think the jump is considered an old and outdated pattern.
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Re: Studying ; Game of the day

Post by Magicwand »

Christos wrote:
- is 7 F15 for black not playable and possibly better? In the end I suppose it's all about your own style and Cho Chikun is a fairly territory-oriented player, or am I missing another reason why my move is inferior?
- White 54 looks really uncomfortable, this group could fall under heavy attack later. But I'm not sure if white has much of a choice in the matter.
- What did the exchange from 188 to 194 get for white? They seem like wasted ko threats and he ends in gote.
- 201 - 209 was an awesome exchange for black, I doubt I would've seen it no matter how much time I got (even after he played T8 I didn't know what his purpose was)
- 242 last move in the game, Black resigns, he appears to be ahead at the moment but he will be forced to capture the white group in his own territory after which he will be behind. Could that have been the purpose of white's exchange earlier in the game despite it being gote?
1. 7 or F15..both josekies. either move can be played.
2. 54 seems like the only move white can play at this point.
3. exchange is a perfect timing and it is not a waste of ko threat. perhaps bill can tell you how much it worth..
4. 201-209 is an awesome exchange for white and only way to play for black. it simplified the board and gave white a guarantee win.

overall it was a complicated and very close game but white found a way to win.
i am impressed at white for lower left tenuki and playing middle.
actually i am impressed at many other moves by white that is hard to think of.

thank you for posting sgf.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Re: Studying ; Game of the day

Post by snorri »

Ah, yes. My Friday Night Files, otherwise known as one person's shrine to Cho Chikun :D

I'm not sure why people are hiding their comments.

When a game goes to the endgame, I think it's interesting to look at the opening position and see if it looks at all like the endgame position or of territories have been exchanged. It's also interested to see which stones are saved vs. sacrificied. Take a look at the position at move 53:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . O B . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O B . O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O O O O B . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . B B B O . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Usually Cho likes territory very much, but here we see black occupying three corners. Here, I think what is interesting is the exchanges made by black's marked stones. The ones on the upper side have already been sacrificed, and the three in the center are very short of liberties. I think many beginners would have tried to save both sets of stones early. (About 50 moves later, black does eventually connect the center stones, but they become dame points.)

For me, it is a little hard to appreciate what black has gained by this forcing. Maybe we can talk about whether the wedge at 37 is somehow made more powerful by that. If black had played this wedge earlier, for example, here, how would it have gone?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Alternate move 29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O X . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . . . . 1 , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Anyway, I think I'm missing some concepts that would help me appreciate moves 29-37 more, so maybe stronger players can help. Maybe black's view is that this is all just kikasare for white, so, you know, whatever. But it would hard for me to emulate what black is doing there. I don't like to force like that without a clear idea of what's being gained. I guess if white has to play too many slow moves to capture the forcing stones (i.e. they are bait) that's one thing, but the value is hard to judge.

Let's start with that. I'll have other questions later... :)
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Re: Studying ; Game of the day

Post by daniel_the_smith »

snorri wrote:... Take a look at the position at move 53:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . O B . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O B . O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O O O O B . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . B B B O . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...

For me, it is a little hard to appreciate what black has gained by this forcing. ...
Didn't black get a very large corner? Also, I think there was some aji in the center with the two white stones... But I'm mostly guessing :)

I thought move 29 was really interesting, I've never seen it before. My guess is that it and the following moves were just to give white bad shape? :scratch:
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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Re: Studying ; Game of the day

Post by snorri »

daniel_the_smith wrote:
Didn't black get a very large corner? Also, I think there was some aji in the center with the two white stones... But I'm mostly guessing :)
Yes, but that was his privilege anyway.
daniel_the_smith wrote: I thought move 29 was really interesting, I've never seen it before. My guess is that it and the following moves were just to give white bad shape? :scratch:
:b29: is a common lighter shape, as is the gozumi at :w30: to be severe. I might play these moves, but the question is the timing and how it relates to the wedge at :b37:

I just don't know what black is thinking there. Maybe if black wedges like in my second diagram with :b29: rather than playing the knight's move white will no longer answer the knight's move as in the game? If that is so, maybe it's case of getting the forcing moves in while white will still answer them.

None of this makes sense to me unless black's three center stones become useful somehow. So I'm looking to understand why those might be a headache for white.
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Re: Studying ; Game of the day

Post by Christos »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Alternate move 29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . 8 7 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O X . 6 5 O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . . . 2 1 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 4 O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This looks worse for black than after black exchanges the moves at the top first do you not agree? There is no real way for black to get forcing moves in anymore other than by running. Granted black might not try for the corner but not doing so would render the wedge useless I think.

However not playing the wedge leaves the following follow up for white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Alternate move 29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O X . . . O 5 1 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . . 9 3 2 4 X 8 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 6 O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The stones black places in the game do not seem important, they look like mere sente moves played for aji. I think the main goal is to safely invade as deep as possible by threatening to connect to the stones. Of course I can be way off base, just my two cents.
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