i'm still flushing out the rules, so maybe you could help.
i'm thinking of making a go variant where either player can play instead of a white or black stone a neutral stone:
the neutral stone cannot be captured, or completely surrounded by a single color.
the neutral stone is not considered connected to a group under any circumstances. (doesn't increase liberties.)
a neutral stone cannot be placed orthogonally next to another neutral stone.
suicide is legal with neutral stones.
super ko rule.
so some examples.
if it's black's move, he may play a neutral stone at his last liberty to capture his own group. the neutral stone itself is not removed, so white's group has 1 less point of territory.
whites group its still alive however. black would have to capture one of the two white stones that aren't connected to the two 3 stone groups to kill. the south white stone has 3 current liberties.
note that a neutral stone cannot be placed at the top left corner, as this space is completely surrounded by a single color; nor can white play the spot on top of the neutral stone.
here's a more strategic way to use a neutral stone.
white just played the neutral stone. black cannot surround it, so must accept the capture of the two stones on white's next move.
however, black can now immediately capture back.
hope that makes sense.
--edited for clarity.
neutral go
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phillip1882
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: neutral go
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phillip1882
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Re: neutral go
hmmm, i was thinking yes originally, but after that comment, not sure it should be allowed.
making two eyes would be much easier then.
" a neutral stone cannot be completely surrounded orthogonally by a single color."
so I'd say no.
making two eyes would be much easier then.
" a neutral stone cannot be completely surrounded orthogonally by a single color."
so I'd say no.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: neutral go
It might be easier to have the random placement of half a dozen neutral stones at the beginning of the game.
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Mef
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Re: neutral go
Hmmm....life and death could get tricky....
White cannot play both T16 and S17. The Q19/R18/S19 shape acts as an eye as demonstrated above.
Of course....
B3 is forced because if W gets to play a neutral stone at R19 the corner is stripped away. B can't play T18 because the neutral stone would mean he could never play S17...after W6, B seems to be in trouble? If B tries t18 it's not even a ko (since B can never play s17), white will capture everything.
W6 would be atari, and B cannot capture....maybe the L group still is dead...I'll have to look at this more..
White cannot play both T16 and S17. The Q19/R18/S19 shape acts as an eye as demonstrated above.
Of course....
B3 is forced because if W gets to play a neutral stone at R19 the corner is stripped away. B can't play T18 because the neutral stone would mean he could never play S17...after W6, B seems to be in trouble? If B tries t18 it's not even a ko (since B can never play s17), white will capture everything.
W6 would be atari, and B cannot capture....maybe the L group still is dead...I'll have to look at this more..
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Mef
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Re: neutral go
phillip1882 wrote:so some examples.
if it's black's move, he may play a neutral stone at his last liberty to capture his own group. the neutral stone itself is not removed, so white's group has 1 less point of territory.
whites group its still alive however. black would have to capture one of the two white stones that aren't connected to the two 3 stone groups to kill. the south white stone has 3 current liberties.
note that a neutral stone cannot be placed at the top left corner, as this space is completely surrounded by a single color; nor can white play the spot on top of the neutral stone.
Actually, I was thinking about this some more....
As I understand it B1 is alive now? And if W doesn't play a move like 2, black playing a neutral stone here is potentially problematic?
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phillip1882
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gaius
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Re: neutral go
Woaah, those stones would be super-powerful! You could cut almost any loose connection with them. For example, let's look at a common joseki:
there might actually be a bad move here now. The punishment:
followed by a capturing race:
black cannot save those three stones any more now...
If these neutral stones are included in the game, almost any loose connection ceases to work, so you have to play super-duper solidly. Before you know it, a neutral stone can rip your beautiful connection apart. It might actually be an interesting game though
there might actually be a bad move here now. The punishment:followed by a capturing race:
black cannot save those three stones any more now...
If these neutral stones are included in the game, almost any loose connection ceases to work, so you have to play super-duper solidly. Before you know it, a neutral stone can rip your beautiful connection apart. It might actually be an interesting game though
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.
When in doubt, play the most aggressive move
When in doubt, play the most aggressive move
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Mef
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Re: neutral go
gaius wrote:Woaah, those stones would be super-powerful! You could cut almost any loose connection with them. For example, let's look at a common joseki:
followed by a capturing race:
B1 could be problematic for White. or even a calm move at A
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Laman
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Re: neutral go
Mef wrote:B1 could be problematic for White. or even a calm move at A
i could be wrong, but doesn't your 1 allow white to capture the black stone?
your second proposal, black A (here b 2) looks better, black is cut but both his groups are stronger than the single white stone
this go variant seems mind-twisting, to a degree i can't say whether i like it or not. interesting for sure
Spilling gasoline feels good.
I might be wrong, but probably not.
I might be wrong, but probably not.
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Mef
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Re: neutral go
Laman wrote:Mef wrote:B1 could be problematic for White. or even a calm move at A
i could be wrong, but doesn't your 1 allow white to capture the black stone?
your second proposal, black A (here b 2) looks better, black is cut but both his groups are stronger than the single white stone
this go variant seems mind-twisting, to a degree i can't say whether i like it or not. interesting for sure
B5 captures the W stone
This could be tricky though, because if white can force black to play 'a' in any variation he can play a living stone at 'b' and black has nothing in the corner (aside from any other threats to capture).
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Dr Burns
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Re: neutral go
Hey guys,
I figured I'd throw in real quick. I'd actually contemplated an idea somewhat like this. One thing to consider, as someone said, these stones can be crazy powerful. You could, it sounds like, gouge out the eyes of an established live group. Just play your neutral stone at one eye. The group is now (assuming it only has 2 eyes) dead. Might I suggest a (very) limited number of these to be played, or as someone suggested, distribute a few before hand.
Have fun and God bless,
Adam
I figured I'd throw in real quick. I'd actually contemplated an idea somewhat like this. One thing to consider, as someone said, these stones can be crazy powerful. You could, it sounds like, gouge out the eyes of an established live group. Just play your neutral stone at one eye. The group is now (assuming it only has 2 eyes) dead. Might I suggest a (very) limited number of these to be played, or as someone suggested, distribute a few before hand.
Have fun and God bless,
Adam
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hailthorn011
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Re: neutral go
I think it'd be fun to try a game using these rules. I like the idea of the neutral stone. Anyone want to try?
Slava Ukraini!
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Suji
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Re: neutral go
hailthorn011 wrote:I think it'd be fun to try a game using these rules. I like the idea of the neutral stone. Anyone want to try?
Agreed, but how would players play it if they could only play online? Malkovich game?
My plan to become an SDK is here.