It is currently Tue May 13, 2025 1:00 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #1 Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:36 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1378
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Liked others: 253
Was liked: 105
Any choice pieces of advice you think don't get bandied about *quite* enough? Be it run-of-the-mill or brilliant.
Also; kibitz, caveat, critique others' advice.

I'll start with:

1) Take care of the super-moyo your opponent is inevitably building before it becomes a big problem/fight.
If you can live easily you can split / invade (like if you can definitely get an uncramped 2 space extension).

Otherwise, you can make a limiting play.
Limiting play? Various caps; or the "knight's move at the edge of two moyo" are good examples of limiting plays. I would say the key point is that your move must have easy access to the centre. If your opponent can aggressively cut you off from the centre somehow, your move was "too deep".


2) Only play 4-4 stone enclosures when that approach has become your opponent's best next move.
If making an early enclosure here was going to be a big part of your strategy, you could have started with a different stone :P.
Some illustration:

Your opponent has supporting thickness he wants to approach from.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Cho U - Yoda Norimoto
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's simply the biggest thing on the board (you know how people are always talking about "most open side of the board").
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c O Rissei - Takao Shinji
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


PS: GoGoD is great!

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.


This post by Loons was liked by 2 people: Chew Terr, daal
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #2 Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:35 pm 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 223
Location: Denver CO
Liked others: 16
Was liked: 83
Rank: SDK
GD Posts: 156
As pointed out recently: You don't need to kill everything. Getting ahead (esp if in sente is enough). Attacking too hard will leave you weak.

Bruce "Yeah, right..." Young

_________________
Currently reading: Plutarch, Cerebus, and D&Q 25th Anniversary


This post by BaghwanB was liked by: Loons
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #3 Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:29 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1378
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Liked others: 253
Was liked: 105
I read one of Fairbarn's articles where he explained the "amashi" strategy (which you may have only vaguely heard of) is actually to coax your opponent into over-attacking a weak group, ending up with inefficient, "musclebound" shapes and an inferior result (assuming you succeed :P).

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #4 Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:18 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 852
Location: Central Coast
Liked others: 201
Was liked: 333
Rank: KGS [-]
GD Posts: 428
We all learn pretty early on that it (eventually) takes at least 6 stones to make a living group in the corner, 8 on the side, and 10 in the middle...but when you think about it, that means that every time you allow yourself to get cut you're potentially committing yourself to 6-10 more moves just to make life for your new group, that's 6-10 more moves that you aren't building, making points, etc. If you're going to let yourself get cut, make sure it's going to be worth it. Likewise, if you have the opportunity to cut your opponent / connect two of your own groups, the reverse situation applies.


This post by Mef was liked by 3 people: jts, Loons, Suji
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #5 Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:58 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1206
Liked others: 51
Was liked: 192
Rank: KGS 5d
KGS: Str1fe, Midorisuke
I heard some variation on "It's so hard to kill stones" almost every day in China. It's surprising the places you can live in.


This post by Shaddy was liked by 2 people: eyecatcher, Loons
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #6 Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:17 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 65
Liked others: 17
Was liked: 7
Rank: SDK
However badly you do it, count the score at every big decision.

Before you resign, count the score.
Before you decide whether to invade or reduce, count the score.
Before you play a purely defensive gote move, count the score.

It matters whether you're behind or not for these decisions. The more you count during your game, the better you get at it, both in speed and accuracy.


This post by Tsuyoku was liked by: Loons
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #7 Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:59 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2060
Location: Texas
Liked others: 546
Was liked: 173
Rank: KGS 3k
GD Posts: 264
KGS: Chew
Here's one I had pointed out at Congress: "If a move doesn't make points, it might or might not end up doing anything". This seems obvious, and it seems like there are a million exceptions to it. But basically, I had to start asking myself whether moves were likely to become dame for no reason. After that, I started finding more excuses to take moves that got points. That is, after all, how you win.

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #8 Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:14 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2659
Liked others: 310
Was liked: 631
Rank: kgs 6k
Chew Terr wrote:
Here's one I had pointed out at Congress: "If a move doesn't make points, it might or might not end up doing anything". This seems obvious, and it seems like there are a million exceptions to it. But basically, I had to start asking myself whether moves were likely to become dame for no reason. After that, I started finding more excuses to take moves that got points. That is, after all, how you win.

Did they mean specifically territory, or any kind of point-gaining move? If the latter, this seems kind of like a tautology: in go, points are what matter, so if it doesn't make points, it's not doing anything. If the former, it must be a tautology again, balanced on the "might". Any good move that doesn't change the balance of secure territory is changing the balance of potential territory (loosely speaking), so of course that potential might not become actual.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #9 Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:47 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1848
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 90
Was liked: 837
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Don't be afraid to get yourself in atari, even knowing it can get captured. This is Go, not Capture Go.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play.
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ . O . . . . . , O . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 . 2 . . . |
$$ . , . . 4 7 6 , . . . |
$$ . . . . . 9 8 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play.
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ . , . . O X O , . . . |
$$ . . . . 3 X O X 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . O 2 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Where did White (Choi Cheolhan) play?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O O X X O . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O O X X X O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X X . . . X . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . 2 . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by Solomon was liked by: Loons
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #10 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:19 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2060
Location: Texas
Liked others: 546
Was liked: 173
Rank: KGS 3k
GD Posts: 264
KGS: Chew
jts wrote:
Chew Terr wrote:
Here's one I had pointed out at Congress: "If a move doesn't make points, it might or might not end up doing anything". This seems obvious, and it seems like there are a million exceptions to it. But basically, I had to start asking myself whether moves were likely to become dame for no reason. After that, I started finding more excuses to take moves that got points. That is, after all, how you win.

Did they mean specifically territory, or any kind of point-gaining move? If the latter, this seems kind of like a tautology: in go, points are what matter, so if it doesn't make points, it's not doing anything. If the former, it must be a tautology again, balanced on the "might". Any good move that doesn't change the balance of secure territory is changing the balance of potential territory (loosely speaking), so of course that potential might not become actual.


Yes, it may seem obvious/tautological. However, I found myself spending a lot of moves in what became dame later. For example, I would split living groups, or play a lot of moves building a wall that was more or less invalidated before I started building it. That sort of thing. So I was basically telling myself 'If this doesn't actually make territory, consider twice whether or not you have a plan for what it WILL do'.

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #11 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:29 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2659
Liked others: 310
Was liked: 631
Rank: kgs 6k
Chew Terr wrote:
Yes, it may seem obvious/tautological. However, I found myself spending a lot of moves in what became dame later. For example, I would split living groups, or play a lot of moves building a wall that was more or less invalidated before I started building it. That sort of thing. So I was basically telling myself 'If this doesn't actually make territory, consider twice whether or not you have a plan for what it WILL do'.


I guess... but then, it can be okay if your stones, even an entire wall, ends up as dame, or even as part of an opponent's territory. It depends on what you got in return. "OMG I need to make territory here" ends up in a distinctly low class of game. Bill Spight did a great post on how to use walls, with this lesson.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #12 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:31 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2060
Location: Texas
Liked others: 546
Was liked: 173
Rank: KGS 3k
GD Posts: 264
KGS: Chew
jts wrote:
I guess... but then, it can be okay if your stones, even an entire wall, ends up as dame, or even as part of an opponent's territory. It depends on what you got in return. "OMG I need to make territory here" ends up in a distinctly low class of game. Bill Spight did a great post on how to use walls, with this lesson.


Oh, sure. There's definitely a time and place. I was just in a phase of... forgetting the goal of the whole game, and wondering why I lost.

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #13 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:01 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1628
Liked others: 546
Was liked: 450
Rank: senior player
GD Posts: 1000
If possible, when you make a defensive move make one that does more than just defend.

This is part of the general advice to make multipurpose moves, but so often I see players, when they need to play a defensive move (e.g. to protect a gorup under attack) make a move that has no other effect than defending. For example if you need to protect a group play a move that protects but also does something else like leave a big endgame move for later.


This post by gowan was liked by: Loons
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #14 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:34 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1848
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 90
Was liked: 837
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
gowan wrote:
For example if you need to protect a group play a move that protects but also does something else like leave a big endgame move for later.
The best defense is a good offense. The hand which strikes also blocks.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #15 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:41 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2264
Liked others: 1180
Was liked: 553
Araban wrote:
gowan wrote:
For example if you need to protect a group play a move that protects but also does something else like leave a big endgame move for later.
The best defense is a good offense. The hand which strikes also blocks.

but the one I always had/have trouble with: close fist before striking

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #16 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:55 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1378
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Liked others: 253
Was liked: 105
I speculate it may help to relate those attack and defence proverbs to weak groups.

Quote:
The best defence is a good offence


If your opponent attacks your weak group and has a (related) weak group himself, attacking his weak group may be/is often a better idea than trying to run or live directly with your group. Some possible scenarios:

You answer his attack directly. The strength he gains hounding your weak group helps his weak group.

You attack his weak group in answer. He follows up against your weak group. You follow up against his weak group.

You attack his weak group in answer, he defends his weak group. You use this to help your group.


And very relatedly-

Quote:
Close fist before striking


Don't start an attack when you have left a weakness that compromises it.

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #17 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:01 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2116
Location: Silicon Valley
Liked others: 152
Was liked: 330
Rank: 2d AGA
GD Posts: 1193
KGS: lavalamp
Tygem: imapenguin
IGS: lavalamp
OGS: daniel_the_smith
My favorite:

Don't go fishing when your house is on fire!

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com


This post by daniel_the_smith was liked by: Loons
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #18 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:50 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9552
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Image

I'm not sure if it's good advice or not, but this has been my motto these days. Too often, I've gotten caught up in the message boards, asking, "What's the optimal way to do X?", "In situation X, how should I respond?", etc. (for various values of X).

Theory and proverbs are great, but when it comes down to it, you need experience to win games. So these days, I really try to, "Just do it". I've been playing games almost every day with zero time, 30 seconds per move.

With time that fast, yes I make mistakes. Yes, I lose now and then. But I personally feel that it has been helping me not to dwell on the details of a loss, and just move on to the next game.

I don't know if it's the best advice, and I may be "re-enforcing bad habits"... But these days, I am trying to "Just do it".

Disclaimer: It's actually my opinion that a good thing to do is to find a good balance between "theory" and "practice". But I think I typically focus too much on "theory". Hence, I want to get in more "practice".

_________________
be immersed


This post by Kirby was liked by: flOvermind
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #19 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:54 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9552
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
jts wrote:
Chew Terr wrote:
Yes, it may seem obvious/tautological. However, I found myself spending a lot of moves in what became dame later. For example, I would split living groups, or play a lot of moves building a wall that was more or less invalidated before I started building it. That sort of thing. So I was basically telling myself 'If this doesn't actually make territory, consider twice whether or not you have a plan for what it WILL do'.


I guess... but then, it can be okay if your stones, even an entire wall, ends up as dame, or even as part of an opponent's territory. It depends on what you got in return. "OMG I need to make territory here" ends up in a distinctly low class of game. Bill Spight did a great post on how to use walls, with this lesson.


Personally, I don't see Chew's advice as saying that you can't use walls. I see the benefit in the advice in the fact that it makes you think about the moves you are playing. Play a move for a reason.

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Friendly Advice Thread!
Post #20 Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:32 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2659
Liked others: 310
Was liked: 631
Rank: kgs 6k
Kirby wrote:
Personally, I don't see Chew's advice as saying that you can't use walls. I see the benefit in the advice in the fact that it makes you think about the moves you are playing. Play a move for a reason.

I guess I could accept the advice at the most general level as, "make meaningful moves" or "Have a plan". But I don't think this has anything to do with knowing exactly where your points are going to be. After all, moves that make points can be meaningless too. (As in "that capture looks big, but it's meaningless.")

There's a passage in Kageyama's fundamentals that goes "If you can't see that white has got the better of black in this diagram, lay it out on your bedside table and chant 'White's thickness is superior!' when you get up in the morning." I guess if it's helpful to you and Chew, then it's helpful. But I think a lot players (including me) just need to have faith that a thick position with overwhelming influence really is going to give them the territory they need. They just need to bide their time. Opponent invades at 3-3? Just wait. Opponent plays sente yose in the middle game? Just wait. Refuses to finish a joseki but still manages to live? Just wait. It's like a magnetic force permeating the board, tilting everything in your favor. You don't really need a reason to have a wall (so long as it's not overconcentrated or whatever). If you lose your nerve and say "zomg I need points now", all that influence and thickness is for naught.


This post by jts was liked by: daal
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group